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What is happening to English DanceSport??


el cordobes Joined on 19 Януари 2005 Total posts: 142	Re: What is happening to English DanceSport?? 20 Октомври 2007 г. 00:23 Elaine, Yes you are right to point out the medalist circuit is somewhat active and that unfortunately the young dancers do not turn to the open circuit for the reasons wee know (mainly teachers afraid of losing their business) but I am concerned very few of these kids and their parents do realise the life and cost of a young competitor on the open circuit. I was watching the day competition in Brentwood last week and the way these east-european kids are training is very very different from here. This is the hard way and I don't see many west-european kids willing to do this. I am not saying this is right or wrong...the culture is just different. Anyway...with the extension of the EU borders...we now have more and more kids form east-europe coming to the UK so we have a new source of young talents who will want to make it because they come with very little and are, for most of them, ready to work hard. I think this these are these new migrants coming to the UK every week from Poland, Lithuania, Ukraine, Russia....who will, in the end, save British dancing... As for your last question...well dance professionals have to organise themselves to take action. No one will do it for them and if they don't...well..they won't be needed or just the social dance scene will carry on.
polkadancer Joined on 20 Октомври 2006 Total posts: 1 137	Re: What is happening to English DanceSport?? 20 Октомври 2007 г. 07:49 Dear Elaine and el cordobes You both make some very excellent points and I agree with large amounts of your posts. el cordobes you are so right about the spectators and it is the same even in East Europe. I have been to several competitions where as competitors are eliminated they go home with family and friends and by the time we get to the final there are more adjuidcators than spectators. O.K. not completely true but I think you get the idea. Where I live Latin is popular Standard very much less so. In big events you will have a great atmosphere for the Latin but the ballroom it is flat and must be so uninspiring for the couples. I think you are rght about the dancing in many countries being given new life by the East Europeans coming in. Germany, USA, Canada to name only a few. Let us hope it will be a boost for English Dancing. BUT the picture is not so happy as you think in East Europe and here too many couples do "drop out". I also understand that even in Italy the numbers are falling and Italian Coaches are seriously talking of moving to Hong Kong/China and USA.
Elaine Joined on 28 Януари 2003 Total posts: 144	Re: What is happening to English DanceSport?? 20 Октомври 2007 г. 10:31 polkadancer: Where I live Latin is popular Standard very much less so. In big events you will have a great atmosphere for the Latin but the ballroom it is flat and must be so uninspiring for the couples. It is the exact opposite situation in England. Because the highest numbers of entries at your average competition are in the Senior Ballroom events the Latin is mainly left to last so competitors have normally had to hang around for hours waiting their turn then end up dancing to an empty hall against a small number of other competitors. Hence many won't bother going to a comp if they are just going to dance latin, so low entries, no-body to compete against! I can remember being amazed some years ago when we attended our very first comp outside of England, this was in Italy, at the amount of spectators that flooded through the doors to watch. It was held in a huge venue and the place was packed. However, again does this boil down to money. As I recall spectators at that comp in Italy were charged the equivalent of about 50pence to watch, compare that against the average ticket cost of a comp in England of between £10 and £30 and I suspect that although there could be people who would like to spectate, the prices could put them off.
polkadancer Joined on 20 Октомври 2006 Total posts: 1 137	Re: What is happening to English DanceSport?? 22 Октомври 2007 г. 12:29 Dear Elaine (and el cordobes) I can believe what you have written I even understand that were it nor the Seniors then most Organisers in England would simply stop organising competitions. That is the situation in a nutshell unfortuinately. This means EADA caters to these people rather than "to the future"- When the IDSF World Latin Championship was In Ostrava the CEZ Arena (our Ice Hockey Stadium) was packed and there was a great atmosphere. The next day the normal Czech Open IDSF Standard event it was so very different. Sparse audience no atmosphere no enthusiasm no applause. Even the compere announed "Sorry Competitors the Ostrava audience only like Latin The World and British Open Senior 1 Latin Champions - now retured - were from Czech Republic (they had an English coach) but had very very opportunities to compete in their home country. Probably outside of Russia from the East European Countries it is true to say that there is no strength in depth in ether Senior or Professional competitions. The other thing I find sad is that Juniors and Juveniles are the future BUT most adult competitors can never be bothered to turn up and show support and encouragment for that "future". These same Adult competitors then claim they are not being given support and encouragment!! The wheel goes round.. EADA will not allow the parents of the juvenile junior youth competitors the right to hold office then it seems that democracy is dead. The parents are the people who are actually subsidising the future of English Dancesport and EADA refuses to allow them a voice!! Perhaps the parents need to adopt the slogan used by the Americans when seeking independence from Britain "No taxation without representation". Similarly people who are non dancers are not allowed to seek office - and these are people who could have the best interests of English Dncesport at heart and have time to donate to the cause in many and varied ways They could provide fresh impetus, fresh thinking a new approach that might - just might - bring success but certainly could not do worse. Is it not time to entirely re-examine the roll of EADA and whether there might be a benefit to allowing IDU and IDSA to operate Amateur organisations in England with full BDC recognition? el cordobes You wrote about the inflence of East European dancers in England. Not just east europe although the majority but other countries like Italy are involved !! - Have you realised that the top10 couples (on the dancesportinfo ratings) in Standard COULD ALL dance for another country! This is also true of the top 4 Latin Couples. Perhaps it is time to be grateful that they give their allegiance to England when there is little doubt that by switching the other country would give them far greater opportunities for teaching. shows, etc. Perhaps the reason probably they would not be at the top of their national rankings. This is not just true about England though. If you take the International Professional Latin (as only one example) then you realise 4 out of the 6 finalists could just as easily have danced for another country. .
polkadancer Joined on 20 Октомври 2006 Total posts: 1 137	Re: What is happening to English DanceSport?? 22 Октомври 2007 г. 13:32 TonyManero: Once upon a time, every couple would want to compete at the Open ... even just for the experience! Our couples are content to just dance National comps and few do that as it is. The field is WIDE OPEN at the moment. The Top 6 is nothing like it used to be. Now is the time to plough your energies into competeing guys, not travelling around in shows all year ******************************************************* I hope everyone will forgive me but I would like to go back to the very first post and the thinking of the person who started the thread. How totally I agree. For English Competitors the British Open should be the Holy Grail, it should be their Mecca. Nothing should keep them away. Absolutely everything about Blackpool encapsulates all that is good about Dance Competitions. Not only can you see the very best BUT you can COMPETE against the very best. The knowledge gained by the wise can be immenses. To avoid the British Open can only mean (unless prevented by real reasons like ill health etc) that there is no ambition. You can lay the blame at as many doors as you wish but that is the cold truth. I think it is also time - and I ask those who are offended by next words to at least think about them and the constructive intention behind them - to keep an open mature mind and as el cordobes asked "leave the egos" behind. Do not cry slander, insult, offensive, disgraceful every time someone writes openly. When someone writes there is a lack of the dedication and hard work applied by competitors in England to some countries -they mean no harm. When someone feels hurt and responds that xyz in England works 8 hours a day and then practise 8 hours a night so they certainly have the same dedication that is absolutely correct. Sadly in this case the dedication is not enough and it is the inbuilt talent that is lacking. I know this can seem hard and cruel but that is not how it is intended. This topic has gradually developed in many ways and that is good. It shows people do care. The greater the input the better the future might just be. Although the final result depends on many people who will never write on this forum but a frank exchange of opinions and polite debate must have some benefit. When people write about "the future" I sometimes just wonder what and especially whose "future" it is they mean. If we take the competitors of today I think it is true that they are mainly thinking of their own future. This is completely understandable. Ask them what sacrifice they would make so three other English couples could dance in the final at Blackpool rather than them and you start to get the answer. If they give you a list then a lack of personal ambition is the first fact that emerges. I truly believe that the entire danceworld is now so vey different to say 15 years ago. The top English coaches have become International Coaches. They are responsible for or involved with many of the World Champions from other cointries. They built their future and now it is for todays competitors to build theirs. There are so many countries competing that we never heard of in our dance competitions a few years ago. It is natural to expect that they too will develop and have ambitions. Be practical though - Lithuania had a World Champion Hungary has a World Champion but is that an indication that the entire dance world in those countries is bursting with talent and top coaches and they will dominate in the future? I studied the results from the International Championships. There is a glimmer of hope for England. In the 6 Championships covering Amateur, Rising Star Pro and Professional England had 10 couples in the semi final In the 6 championships for juvenile, junior and youth they had 9 couples in the demi finals. For a few other countries the figures were Italy 19 and 15 USA 10 and 2 Russia 7 and 23 Germany 5 and 0 Slovenia 5 and 0 China 2 and 11 Ukraine 1 and 10. I think we can all agree that Russia and China are advancing powerhouses that we will hear a great deal of in the future Ukraine too might have an impact. I certainly though would not write off Germany or USA. Both I believe will have a big say in the future. The big question is what will the impact of Russia and China emerging have on Italy. Wil lit spur their determination or will less success have an adverse effect?. We must wait and see. The political fighting certainly does not have a positive effect on Italian Dancing unfortunately. Be grateful it has not YET descended to that level in England.. A few brief words about the "Club" system. It does not have all the answers. Join a club and you will be told many times where you can compete, when you will compete and from whom you can take lessons. Also Germany has had a wonderful Club System for any many years. Germany too has had its lean years when the talent was not there to make it to the very top. Yes undoubtedly the Club system can bring advantages but it is not always the solution. You can have intense rivalry between clubs with each is working against the other. Each is more interested in "their future". rather than that of the nation.
Elaine Joined on 28 Януари 2003 Total posts: 144	Re: What is happening to English DanceSport?? 22 Октомври 2007 г. 14:34 polkadancer: Dear Elaine (and el cordobes) I can believe what you have written I even understand that were it nor the Seniors then most Organisers in England would simply stop organising competitions. That is the situation in a nutshell unfortuinately. This means EADA caters to these people rather than "to the future"- EADA do not organise nor run any competitions at all. There are a few localised Amatuer Dance Associations/Clubs in England and one or two of these do promote competitions. The majority of competitions though are organised by Professionals who understandably have to cover their costs for the day and hopefully even make a profit! Normally they would have the juvenile and junior competitions in the mornings and then the adults in the afternoons/evenings. I think that many promotors would say that without the senior competitors (mainly ballroom) that it would not be viable to run their competitions. The other thing I find sad is that Juniors and Juveniles are the future BUT most adult competitors can never be bothered to turn up and show support and encouragment for that "future" - I think many would but most comps are held in small venues so often until the juv and juniors leave after their comps it is impossible to get a seat or even sometimes to find standing room to watch. Personally I love the comps where the adults and young dancers are all combined together but when this happens it often means the childrens comps finishing late and then unhappy parents because the kids get home and to bed so late, especially if they have school next day. EADA will not allow the parents of the juvenile junior youth competitors the right to hold office then it seems that democracy is dead. - There is one position of "Parent Representative" on the EADA Council. I don't believe that under 18's or their parents have any voting rights at all though. Is it not time to entirely re-examine the roll of EADA and whether there might be a benefit to allowing IDU and IDSA to operate Amateur organisations in England with full BDC recognition? - Interesting concept and idea but do we need more organisations in England?? I think we have too many as it is.
polkadancer Joined on 20 Октомври 2006 Total posts: 1 137	Re: What is happening to English DanceSport?? 22 Октомври 2007 г. 15:12 Dear Elaine Thank you but Yes I realise that EADA do not organise or run competitions themeselves (they are like IDSF) not even the EADA Chart Ranking Events. It is all private promoters and it is from these people that I have heard that without the Senior Competitors there would be very few competitions in England. I think though it is true that English dancers can ONLY compete even in these private promoted events (under BDC rules) if they have an EADA membership - and clever EADA even try to make the private promoters police this for them and check the membership. . If I am wrong then please I would like to be corrected. I agree that in England there are smaller halls so this prevents adult competitors arriving to watch but that is not the case in all events and especially like British Nationals. On the Saturday when the Juvenile and Junior events are taking place you will see few adult competitors showing an interest. In many countries it is the same even when events are in very large sports halls. . Perhaps I agree that in some areas we have too many organisations but if one major player who has a total monopoly is failing and the members have no alternative then expect them to simply give up. Being very controversial maybe there would not be "more organisations" if the IDSF connected organisation were to lose its position of advantage and disappear !!!
chunky-monkey Joined on 17 Септември 2007 Total posts: 12	Re: What is happening to English DanceSport?? 29 Октомври 2007 г. 00:13 Dear Polkadancer I don't know how long ago you were in England to observe the "Sunday Circuit"at first hand or even if you're English-based. It is a common misconception that only the "seniors" make the day profitable for the promoter. In reality it is the younger age group that makes the greatest profit for the promoter given that most kids are often accompanied by their parents - usually 3 tickets are sold per family not including siblings. This I concede still has little impact on improving the actual number of junior / juvenile competitors & the biggest obstacle is the lack of transition from the medallist circuit to the open circuit. Secondly as Elaine has pointed out the Juniors & Juveniles do have a voice on EADA through the Parent Rep who, I believe has full voting rights. So they are hardly without a voice. Are there any other national organisations that give voting rights to kids or their representative? This is a genuine question and not in any way faceaious. Yes there are a number of "closed" events, open to those who hold a GB passport or are partnered with someone who holds a GB passport but what exactly is the problem with this circuit? There are also some 500+ other open events in England usually open to the world, why do you think that we see so few non-English couples at these events compared to a few years ago? Among the many good points you've raised I'm afraid that I fail to understand your need to personally attack individuals. It is very easy to stand on the sidelines & point out what every one else is doing wrong, slightly more difficult to roll your sleeves up & get actively involved. If you're English based then I suggest that you try to get nominated on to the EADA Council & experience first hand what is being done or needs to be done. You never know it may just give you a different perspective. One last point which you've sort of hinted at but perhaps hasn't been fully appreciated. The decline of dancing in the more establsihed countries - you stated that Germany has had lean years. I understand that the numbers coming into dancing in Italy is also beginning to wane, wheras China & Russia where dancing is a growing concern are becoming the emerging powers. My personal conclusion is that the wane of dancing is more likely to linked to market saturation, tastes & fashions than the dedication of the dancers withing that national market. The emergence of SCD in England has seen an increase in the number of people taking up dancing whether that will emerge into future world champions reamins to be seen.
polkadancer Joined on 20 Октомври 2006 Total posts: 1 137	Re: What is happening to English DanceSport?? 29 Октомври 2007 г. 09:19 Dear Chunky-Monkey Please can I start by explaining I do not live in England - although I did at one time. I visit England, I have Dance friends who are Coaches Adjudicators, Competitors - Professional and Amateur, Organisers, Scrutineers and parents.. If what the Organisers and coaches tell me is wrong then I willingly accept your statements.. However when I have been to events organised in Essex by people like John Donaldson and also Derreck Squires often I saw very very few couples dancing in Juvenile and Junior and doing several events. Maybe this is unusual but I have certainly seen it. I have also seen very often Juvenile/Junior dancers there with only both mothers - sometimes only one when for example its a brother/sister couple. For some organisers it is just not what is taken at the door as income but from other sources also. In addition often the entry charged for Junior/Juvenile competitors and all spectators is lower than for adult competitors.. Hpwever I absolutely accept what Elaine said that sometimes the adult competitors cannot get into the hall until the junior/juveniles and their supporters depart Please Chunky-Monkey can I also point out that my words regarding Seniors were also mentioned by another contributor to this thread - so I am not alone in what I thought and have been informed is the situation. From interest do you know please the number of juveniles, juniors, seniors registered with EADA?... Perhaps we can watch the British Nationals and see how the Junior Juvenile entries compare to Seniors. In 2006 the Ballroom figures were Juvenile 16 Junior 38 Senior 82 EADA Junior/Juvenile Representative. Please can you advise me. Are all parents allowed to join EADA and vote at AGMs? The Parent Representative - is it only one? How were they selected.? Are they mandated by all other parents as to how to vote? How regularlys do they personally meet with all other parents a) to inform them what was discussed at the last meeeting b) what they want discussed at the next meeting c) are all parents unanimous in their thinking? Do you believe it is democracy to have only one parent from one area speaking for all Junior and Juvenile competitors and all others denied a voice? My understanding is that since I am not an active competitor even if I lived in England I would not be allowed to "roll up my sleeves" and get stuck in. If I am wrong then please do tell me. Maybe there are parents who would like to "roll up their sleeves" but they cannot since there is only one Parent Representative. I was not personally attacking anyone and am sorry if you interpreted it that way. With all respect I believe we have to get past the stage where if you question the actions of the people at the top it is a "personal attack". Any person who takes "political"office and will make decisions for others must expect their actions and motives to be questioned and examined. It is hardly mature or constructive not to deal with the issues but instead respond "Well if you can do better then............" I am not saying that this was your intention but normally this response is made when the desire is to prevent healthy debate and draw attention away from the central issues. Is the EADA committee to be simply "Yes" men and woman and you resign if you disagree? It would seem that this is the case. I received an e-mail advising me that I should read some things on the EADA forum. There I read people asking for guidance and the official EADA position on WDC Amateur League and Dutch Open in Assen. There was no guidance there was no official position. The advice was to write to the two people I named. That was the only advice given. For me - and for some others - this is unacceptable. Why should these two persons secretely and alone be deciding who can and cannot do things? There should be on official statement and guidance especially with regards to Dutch Open and it should be very clearly shown on the EADA website. At the moment the impression being given is that it is hoped english couples will make contact possibly be discouraged from going and perhaps advised it is not wise (Keep Mr. Freitag and IDSF -happy) but NO OFFICIAL statement as to what would happen if they were to compete. Later people could be told "Oh you could have danced if you wanted to go". Some countries have advised their couples they cannot go. The couples have held meetings and decided they WILL go and if their association wishes to ban them and reduce its memberships OK then they can create a new society. The appearance created whether right or wrong is that EADA wish to avoid this at all costs and by not having an official position it will never arise. What will be interesting is what will happen if English Couples do go when EADA has no official position.or statement on their web site. I have been informed - maybe incorrectly - that couples need only inform EADA of their intentions to dance in other countries and they do not have to have "permission". If permission is needed then there must be a declared position and an official statement.. I have not checked back but I hope that the EADA website now clearly displays the EADA position. If competitors then wish to lodge an official complaint with the British Dance Council then they can quote the official position. Please may I ask Chunky-Monkey are you english based? If so please from which general area and how many times a year you get to other areas to see what happens there. You wrote Yes there are a number of "closed" events, open to those who hold a GB passport or are partnered with someone who holds a GB passport but what exactly is the problem with this circuit? Please forgive me but I can only think about UK Closed and British Nationals. Can you tell me some others because I honestly wish to learn more. I do not believe I said any thing was wrong with this circuit but if you do then please can we hear your opinion. I suspect the low turn out of competitors (Amateur and Professional) is and especially for UK Closed. You also wrote There are also some 500+ other open events in England usually open to the world, why do you think that we see so few non-English couples at these events compared to a few years ago? This I find interesting. An average of 10 competitions held each week is great for the competitors.I did not realise it was that high today. Please can I ask WHY you think non-english couples do not compete regularly as a few years ago. I can think of some reasons but would like to read yours. I also know couples who try to compete in England whenever they can as they prefer the English Judges. Certainly each time they come for their lessons they do at least one competition if it is at all possible.. I would also be very interested to know how many years ago you are thinking about. I can remember when at British Open ALL "Overseas Visitors sat in the balcony to the right of the Stage/Orchestra. facing the stage. There was actually enough time for EACH overseas professional to be introduced and perform a short honour dance. A very different situation to the period you are thinking about.. Please can you tell me from which countries the couples no longer come to dance in the weekend competitions who did so regularly previously ?.. I would also be interested to learn how many countries do have couples competing in England in ordinary competitions that never had couples there say 15 years ago.. By the way you asked about the training camp in Poland and I do hope that you read and found helpful all the information that I provided for you. I also gave some information on the excellent training that will be available at the Dutch Open which some think is even better value. If you doubt that Russia is going to be a power house of dancing in the future then I can only suggest you check the results appearing for the "Russian Open". 302 Russian couples in only Junior 11 Standard. Will the TOTAL entry at British Nationals exceed 302 couples if so by how many.? Best wishes .
chunky-monkey Joined on 17 Септември 2007 Total posts: 12	Re: What is happening to English DanceSport?? 01 Ноември 2007 г. 00:04 Dear PolkaDancer Wow!! So many points & so little time but I’ll do my best. I think there are several factors contributing to relatively low numbers at English events but before I address that I need to describe the type of competitions currently found on the English “Sunday Circuit”. EADA National Selection Competitions (NSCs) – these are to all intents ranking events open only to dancers who hold a British passport or are partnered to a dancer who holds a British passport. These have grown in popularity over the last few years and are generally well supported across all age groups & there approx 120 per year. Championships – These are granted by the British Dance Council (BDC). These are “open to the world” in most cases. I understand from the longer established promoters that they were very popular with foreign dancers in the past. Over 500 events granted for 2006. My question to you related to the latter category – why do foreign dancers eschew these events that once were so popular? My personal thoughts for the decline in England: 1. Lack of movement between Medallist & Open Circuit– in addition to the above circuit there is also the Medallist circuit. This is controlled by the dance societies & in a lot of cases (but not all) they do not allow their members to move to the Open Circuit and as such the kids especially are not able to develop. If you do enter the Open Circuit then you’re not allowed to dance on the Medallist Circuit again. There are literally 1000s of kids dancing on the Medallist Circuit every week but due to the constraints currently in place are never allowed to progress any further. 2. Poor venues – I know the venues you visited for the events you’ve described. The venues you’ve described are too small to accommodate both adult & children simultaneously with any degree of comfort. Current UK Child Protection laws in England are now demanding to have separate changing facilities for children, so small venues often have to finish the kid’s comps before they can start the adult comps. 3. Cost – Entry cost for most English comps id £10.00 per entry – regardless if you are a competitor or a spectator. Most English promoters regard the competitor & their accompanying families as their only source of income. Unlike their continental counterparts they fail to attract sponsorship for their events, driving up the costs for the average competitor. The recent Youth World championships (which featured another 3 good quality IDSF events) cost approx £5.00 to enter as a spectator, which meant it attracted a large number of spectators which reduced the cost for the competitors. 4. Too many events- I understand that the BDC granted in excess of 500 championships last year. I believe that the market has become over saturated with so many events. The result of this has been to devalue the value of the Championship events, to the point that all but a very few events are worth while travelling more than a few miles for. This I believe is also the reason why so many foreign dancers don’t bother to come to England. 5. Too many dance societies/bodies – This leads to market fragmentation – please refer to my previous comments. There are probably a number of other reasons that have also contributed to the decline of the English dance scene. Now, you may be surprised to hear that apparently the junior juvenile members make up over 33% of all the EADA membership. So we need to do something that we need to do something to ameliorate the situation with regard to attendance at events. By the way the fact that there may be more Senior entries it does mean that without them the circuit would collapse, what most promoters forget is that for every juvenile & junior entry it also means the sale of tickets to parents/ family & friends. The promoters’ lack of understanding of their market & customers stops them from addressing all of the above problems & making their business more profitable & attracting more customers. The large proportion of junior/juvenile members, I believe was the driver for the introduction of the Parent Rep. As I understand it any parent of a registered junior / juvenile member can stand for this post. The candidate is directly elected by all the other parents. The Parent Rep meets with other parents at least twice per year, so there is direct face-to-face communication. I have no experience of other countries but does anyone else have parent representation on the national governing body? If so do you know how they do it? All members I believe are allowed to stand for the EADA council & are usually voted on by their fellow members but I understand why you personally couldn’t stand for election. This is not the case for many people in England. Your comments about “David and Mary” sounded like a personal attack, even if that was not what was intended. I think that you are more sensitive than that & on a personal basis I found those comments distasteful from someone I admire. We may also need to consider that with the unique situation that exists in England these people may be constrained in what they can do & how they want to do it to “keep the peace”. Just my supposition not a political comment. The EADA rules published on the website should confirm the position regarding travel abroad, I hope as I have not checked. The Assen situation – an interesting dilemma! We’re all aware of the Neil Jones case & that the Dutch federation has said that it is a banned event but if you take part they won’t do anything about it. Does anyone honestly believe there won’t be repercussions for those who take part? Let’s wait & see but given the world-wide political situation I find this hard to believe but please give me you thoughts. I understand that other countries have taken different stances on the Assen question, I believe that if we have significant number of “defectors” that go to Assen then they will prevail but as long as there are only a “few” defectors they will remain a target for the “authorities”. Unlike the continent we do not have the benefits of the “Club System” that one finds in Europe. Without this degree of autonomy /choice it is relatively easy for those who control English dancing to manipulate/control any rebels & the dancers would find it difficult to make the same threat. I have a fairly good idea of what happens around the country as I travel to participate at various events. I have no illusions about the rising “superpowers” in dancing – definitely Russia & China. My comments were merely to describe how much easier it is to attract good young dancers where there is a developing market than a longer established market. England has seen a lot of decline, Germany the next significant European market to emerge has also seen a decline in numbers. Even Italy is now reporting that the numbers coming into dancing are slowing down/declining. I hope I’ve covered most things its been a pleasure to kick these ideas around with you. Chunky-Monkey p.s. I rcently saw some English magazines from the 1970s, guess what they were talikng about.... yes "what is happening to english dancing"