UNREGISTERED COMPETITIONS: WHAT ARE THEY?

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Joined on 31 Август 2007
Total posts: 81

Re: UNREGISTERED COMPETITIONS: WHAT ARE THEY?

05 Март 2008 г. 18:01

Please excuse the error in the second to last paragraph. I keep on mixing up CDTA and CADA. It should be CADA executive did not send out a referendum. The last time I posted a similar error CDTA members emailed me and were quite irate. CADA probably were too!
Joined on 29 Август 2007
Total posts: 105

Re: UNREGISTERED COMPETITIONS: WHAT ARE THEY?

05 Март 2008 г. 19:03

Yes you guys guys are right. We sambato go did over step the line on this occasion. Sorry to all. 

But it is frustrating when people automaticly make assumptions when their only scource of information is by CADA and CDF.

 

Joined on 30 Септември 2006
Total posts: 15

Re: UNREGISTERED COMPETITIONS: WHAT ARE THEY?

05 Март 2008 г. 22:24

I've been reading this thread with interest. Let me say that I'm not in favor of all the politics and related confrontations taking place in the ballroom dance world. Dancing, and particularly ballroom dancing, is an expression of joy and harmony between people! To see conflict raging like this is so counter to the spirit of the "sport" that it upsets many dancers.

One of the things that strikes me about these arguments over bans is that some (perhaps many) in the DanceSport community think that bans are something new to sport. In actual fact, they have been a tradition for generations. Take, for example, the sport of cycling. The International Cycling Union plays the role of the IDSF and governs cyclists worldwide (both amateur and professional competitors). If you want to hold a small criterium in your city, you have to apply for sanctioning from the ICU and all participants have to be members of the ICU in order to take part. Naturally, people can have informal events, which would be similar to "club closed" events in the dance world, with no rankings, ratings, or points, but just for fun. The ICU can ban a member for a number of reasons and competing in an unsanctioned event is one of them. Restrictions on event participation, with appropriate bans, exists in virtually every other serious sport as well. It's not new to sport, just new to dancing. It's not creating conflict in other sports because people accept it as the way things are.

Now, the IDSF sees ballroom dancing as a sport. They have that right, though I wish they had asked their members about this Olympic push before going down that road. The WDC sees ballroom dancing as an art with athletic qualities. Two opposing philosophies. Maybe dancers agree with the IDSF, maybe they agree with WDC. The point is that the IDSF has a right to govern its members the way that any other sport governs its members. So, if it wants to apply the same "rules" that are applied in every other significant sport, then so be it. The members joined voluntarily to take advantage of the benefits which the IDSF strategy, for better or worse, have provided: a worldwide climate of active competitions. Members who choose not to join are free to participate in other things, but are left out of the IDSF sport umbrella.

So, I don't believe that the WDC or CDDSC or any other organization opposing the IDSF has any right to decry that approach. It simply appears to me to be founded on jealousy or fear of losing ground or both. The WDC has every opportunity to create the same kind of open market opportunity that the IDSF created. It's a free world. There are no restrictions internationally on this initiative, just on having IDSF members be part of it. Dancers have to choose, and will choose based on what they see as the best choice for them. If they choose the IDSF, no problem. If they choose WDC, no problem. But let's stop all this bickering against the IDSF and its policies.

I say, the best way to put this conflict behind us is to have the CDDSC stop attacking CADA and focus on their own vision, if they have one. Instead, they spend all their time and effort attacking those who are moving ahead with their involvement in DanceSport. What or who does that serve? There's lots of talk about freedom, but where are the opportunities? The WDC and CDDSC are failing to offer anything meaningful, just attack after attack! These things come off looking rather pathetic in the end. The attacks don't fit with the spirit of dancing, and only serve to make the CDDSC and its supporters look bitter and unattractive.
Joined on 29 Август 2007
Total posts: 105

Re: UNREGISTERED COMPETITIONS: WHAT ARE THEY?

06 Март 2008 г. 02:28

Ad-Wiz,

 

Many of your earlier statements we agree with you are totally right.

But some other points much  less so. Particularly quote " The WDC has every opportunity to create the same kind of open market opprtunity that the IDSF created." Really, is that a fact? We were totally unaware of this fact. Can you please expand upon your reasons for this statement?

Also quote " The best way to put this conflict behind us is to have the CDDSC stop attacking CADA and focus on their own vision, if they have one" Agreed it is the best way. But have the CDDSC attacked CADA? We are unaware of this if it is true? If so, when and how and by whom? We believe the CDDSC do focus on getting the job done. And have witnessed no different.

It is CADA and the CDF who go to great lenghts to stop CDDSC. Which would take too long to explain.

We {Sambatogo} are  CDDSC and WDC supporters, no question.  We merely point out CADA policies and actions. You obviously don`t like it? Sorry for that, but it IS the facts. It`s just that CADA will not tell you.

We agree with you that the policy of live and let live is the best policy. But that is not what CADA wants. You justify their actions by saying that it is no different to other sports, and is common practice. That may or may not be true, but is it just? Is it what dancers really want? Are they too scared to say any different? Do they feel they have no option but to accept CADA`s position?  Have CADA asked its members ? We know the answer to that is NO!!  To join CADA and "Belong  to the IDSF Umbrella", or not belong,  really is not a choice. Iit is an ultimatum!

These are, we believe, where the main core problems lay.

Also, can someone tell us, as we really do seem to be missing the point on this : What benifit is it to anyone to have restrictions, threats and bans in Dancesport? And for what reason? These are important questions that are never answered by CADA or their supporters like yourself. Can there ever be a satisfactory answer, or even any answer?. Maybe you have the answer Ad Wiz?

We expect that these questions will be as usual, nanswered.

{Sambatogo}

  

.

Joined on 29 Август 2007
Total posts: 8

Re: UNREGISTERED COMPETITIONS: WHAT ARE THEY?

06 Март 2008 г. 05:53

Quicktime2 you have written a lot that I did not know. I have never heard about CADA voting at the  IDSF meeting.. Don't they have to report to OADA and the members about what happened at the meeting? 

 

The dancers I know don't like being told they can't dance in certain competitions, even if they weren’t going to go.  I cant see what difference does it make to OADA if someone dances in a CDDSC competition. It does not count towards our ratings. Why make such a fuss? Why can't OADA let us make up our own minds where we want to dance. We're not stupid.

Joined on 30 Септември 2006
Total posts: 15

Re: UNREGISTERED COMPETITIONS: WHAT ARE THEY?

06 Март 2008 г. 08:19

You seem to have missed the key point of my earlier post: sports organizations have every right to set rules and to suspend privileges for those who violate them. This exists in virtually every organized sporting organization, even automobile racing. At one point a couple of years ago, I did extensive research on rules in sports, especially as it involved sanctioning and bans, because I felt as you do that these bans were wrong. What I discovered changed my mind. These kinds of bans are a common part of the rules throughout the sports world. Even the sports players of the US Army and US Navy teams can't play on the other guy's teams -- even in a different sport -- without suspensions.

These bans are uncomfortable because we've never faced them before. Would I like to have the freedom to compete anywhere? Of course. But I accept that the IDSF has reasons, even if I don't agree with them, for creating these restrictions. They are concerned about having multiple world championship titles, about losing control of the ranking system and so on. These are valid concerns. I'm sure there are ways around them, and I wish they would explore them, but that's the way things are. In other sports, nobody contests these bans because there are no alternatives at all. At least in DanceSport there are -- for now, anyway -- alternatives. People can still join the alternative organization if they don't want to abide by the restrictions imposed by the IDSF.

But there is nothing wrong or unusual in the fact that these restrictions exist. The IDSF is an organization that people can choose to join or not join. This gives them the legal right to impose whatever rules they feel are necessary. In Canada dancers would choose to join through their regional CADA affiliate organization, and these have, as part of their mandate, the requirement to abide by and enforce the rules of the top-level organization. Different countries may look the other way on these rules, but ultimately they could face the prospect of being anulled, so most take this role seriously.

The point, again, is this: The IDSF, as a private member-based organization has the right to apply restrictions as they see fit. If dancers don't like it, they can choose to leave the IDSF and join a competitive organization. That's far more options than are currently available in most other sports, where only one governing body exists.
Joined on 28 Януари 2003
Total posts: 128

Re: UNREGISTERED COMPETITIONS: WHAT ARE THEY?

06 Март 2008 г. 08:41

Adwiz:
At least in DanceSport there are -- for now, anyway -- alternatives. People can still join the alternative organization if they don't want to abide by the restrictions imposed by the IDSF.

Not strictly true, well certainly not in every country!  In England for example to be able to dance in open competitions within Great Britain, Amatuers have to be registered with EADA. EADA in turn are members of the IDSF, so at this moment in time, certainly for English Amatuers, there is no choice and I suspect that this is the same in many other countries.

Joined on 24 Декември 2005
Total posts: 215

Re: UNREGISTERED COMPETITIONS: WHAT ARE THEY?

06 Март 2008 г. 09:54

Can I further add to Elaine's comment. EADA members not only have to abide by EADAs rules they also have to abide by the BDCs rules whether or not EADA is a member. The BDC is the ultimate rule making body in Britain even though the BDC is not even recognised by any government organisation as the Governing body of our sport.

The last word is also the sticky point for many in our world. Supporters of the IDSF see themselves as sports people. Supporters of the WDC, I contend, don't see our form of dancing as sport. As such, these people don't feel duty bound to accept the rules of the IDSF or any associated body. I will stand corrected but I think it's probably true.

Adwiz, you are completely right when you state that any organisation has the right to impose its rules on its own members. Unfortunately, there are some (probably very few though, but rather vocal) who are so anti IDSF they seem to forget that the WDC has its own rules which they are at liberty to enforce if they so wish. The fact that they aren't (so they say) doesn't mean the won't.

Best wishes
Steve


Joined on 05 Август 2005
Total posts: 237

Re: UNREGISTERED COMPETITIONS: WHAT ARE THEY?

06 Март 2008 г. 15:39

Hello everyone,  just a few reflection on this thread,  make yourselves a cup of coffee this may be a long one :

 

No Question that   IDSF can introduce own Rules

No Question, IDSF members may follow the Rules,  or not

No Question, CADA decided to support the Rules

No Question, these Rules therefore apply to CADA and to OADA

It is IDSF's, CADA's  right.  You do not like it,  ask OADA, CADA otherwise, lobby,  put your ideas, suggestion to a vote,  attend the annual meetings,  actively participate.

 

You and I can toss this argument back and forth, we need to hear from someone in the authority.

Will we ?

As long as the tenacious supporters of WDC and CDDSC such as Sambatogo aim and use insults and intimidation at new visitors interested-to-offer-their-views,  calling them Idiots, I doubt   the CADA voluteers will waset time, and should stoop down to this gutter-level name calling discussion.

 

Sambatogo - who ever "they"  represents  had earlier posted some interesting posts. He "they" have interesting information worthy consideration.

 It is too bad  he spoiled it. 

  Next time,  Sambatogo  would be advised to check first and to receive an approval from his spouse. If Sambatogo becomes frustrated with the obvious and repeated support for CADA in this thread   "they" would be wise to back off rather than  repeating "their" dislike for CADA,  stopping just short of naming the CADA president.  

 

Sambatogo requested an answer to questions and immediately predicted there would be no answer.  As a professional in the field I expected  this denial. Long ago I tried to help another and quite knowledgeable contributor called Polkadancer. Apparently she has found her calling and moved on.

 

In psychology this is dealt with in the field of denial.

 

What the experts  who write medical text book  say is that it does not matter what evidence is offered ,  if the receiver is not open minded, ready and prepared to accept the information  he will simply deny receiving it  and likely would  resort to denial  or to  deflection,  striking back  or deflecting at someone else.

 

If you need a few minutes of counceling,  I am here to listen.  I sense a feeling of loss, injustice and jelousy and a deep feeling of angre.  It is perfectly natural to have such feelings.  The more you pick and poke and remind yourself of the loss the deeper the problem in a long run. Do nor revisit the unpleasand,  it as if you poked again and again a dog's poop. Let it be,  it will smell bed again the more you come back and poke it.  (  I use this analogy when dealing with troubled children, and they understand the concept well ).

 

May I suggest as a friend, that you :

1.  establish your own identity and stop hiding behind " we"  and "us"  and in that way accept the  responsibility for your own actions.

2.  read and consider what others say.  Not everything will be correct,  and you may disagree.  It is your right, and you have a choice.  When  a majority of people agree,  please accept the democratic principal  and  do not get angry. You still may be right, but  if it came to a vote, would you win ?  Not against the majority.

It is good you take a firm stand and support what you believe in,  but it is not good and not healthy for you to strike, insult and take away from those who believe in something else.  I sense you are a mature person with adeep sense of conviction, and you should know better than  insult on line because you can never take it back,  and your  sorry's and appologies will come too late.  

While you challenge Ad Wiz,  lut let me try, as a friend, OK ?

  What benifit is it to anyone to have restrictions, threats and bans in Dancesport?

This was already answered and examples were provided from other official sports.

And for what reason?

This was also explained.  It is the right of organisations/emloyers/governments/ even a small business enterprise, such as a corner store  to have Policies, Rules Restrictions.   You would not want your spouse to  purchase, prepare  and  feed you a fish  which started to decompose, because the store had no rule and no restriction on the sale of 'out-of-date product', would you ? 

 

These are important questions that are never answered by CADA or their supporters like yourself. Can there ever be a satisfactory answer, or even any answer?. Maybe you have the answer Ad Wiz?

I have tried to explained earlier,  that we cannot,  and it is unfortunate, expect an answer from CADA officials,  who would not have a luxury of hiding under name "Sambatogo"  and "we" and "us"   as long as they may be called Idiots and possibly worse.

I believe that we would have a better channce to receive CADA officila response if the requestors,  such as you,   were in the more receptive mode,  and as Judge Judy says,  had their listening ears on.

Please do not direct your negative energy towards me,  try disperse and get rid of the negativity.  We are just talking trying to help one another,  not call one another bad names.   And if you  are nor ready to accept help, it is your choice and we all respect it.

We expect that these questions will be as usual, nanswered.

You see, it does not take Ad Wiz to answer,  the answers were right in front of you.  There was no need to label AdWiz a CADA supporter.

Just because I support that 1+1=2  it does not make me a mathematician.

Just because I disagree with Sambatogo it does not make me your enemy,  on the contrary, and as I have written, I consider myself your friend.

 

Just because I or AdWiz  agree that WDC and CDDSC need show own initiative does not mean we are for or aginst them,  and in a similar way our agreement or disagreement with IDSF or CADA does not make us their supporters,  but it does not mean we are not.  These are completely and mutualy independent of each other.

I suggest changing a name and starting with a clean slate.

Give it a thought Sambatogo,  and come  back with your own unique identity,  or  why on under Sambatogo Ltd. ?

Good luck and do not be afraid to put on a happy face.  Situation  is not as gloomy as you see it and I am sure CDDSC will do OK without your help and without their negative propaganda against those who compete with them for members.

 

 

 

Joined on 31 Август 2007
Total posts: 81

Re: UNREGISTERED COMPETITIONS: WHAT ARE THEY?

06 Март 2008 г. 18:13

To the CADA supporters:

 

There has been considerable discussion on rules for other sports. And even an attempt to change this discussion to therapy sessions.

 

But let's have some answers to the question in the thread. Why do EADA and USA Dance and CADA – all members of IDSF – in countries with a similar history of ballroom dance competition- have different policies with respect to bans on competitions?

 

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