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UNREGISTERED COMPETITIONS: WHAT ARE THEY?


keggs Joined on 24 Декември 2005 Total posts: 208	Re: UNREGISTERED COMPETITIONS: WHAT ARE THEY? 06 Март 2008 г. 23:21 Hi Quicktime2 I suppose the answer to your question is that while each are members of IDSF their own domestic policies may be different. It is up to the IDSF to regulate IDSF events not necessarily its member countries. Anyhow, do they all have different policies. Perhaps representatives from each could enlihten us all on this. Regards Steve Reply Quote
Adwiz Joined on 30 Септември 2006 Total posts: 15	Re: UNREGISTERED COMPETITIONS: WHAT ARE THEY? 07 Март 2008 г. 00:05 Elaine: Adwiz: At least in DanceSport there are -- for now, anyway -- alternatives. People can still join the alternative organization if they don't want to abide by the restrictions imposed by the IDSF. Not strictly true, well certainly not in every country! In England for example to be able to dance in open competitions within Great Britain, Amatuers have to be registered with EADA. EADA in turn are members of the IDSF, so at this moment in time, certainly for English Amatuers, there is no choice and I suspect that this is the same in many other countries. I don't know what the government regulations are outside of North America, so I apologize if I made assumptions that aren't universal. But unless the government actually imposes such restrictions, people would be free to create their own group if they wished. In North America, for example, people can join the Arthur Murray community which is a world unto itself, with its own competitions. The very idea of joining that group makes me shudder, but the point is that choices do exist -- at least in some countries. I joined the IDSF associated member body in my country because the world of choices that the IDSF has built, through a lot of blood, sweat and tears during the past 50 years, appeals to me. I may not always agree with everything they do, but ask competitive cyclists or skiiers or even Formula 1 drivers if they always agree with all the rules that are imposed on them. I know they disagree too at times! The IDSF had a vision and worked towards it, and the result is a pretty vibrant competitive environment that now spans, I believe, 84 countries. As I understand it, the IDSF started with a very small group of driven individuals who were frustrated at the unfairness they saw in a ballroom dance world that was, until 1957, controlled entirely by professionals and apparently mistreating amateurs in a number of ways. The amateurs wanted their own voice and did something about it. Nobody is stopping the WDC, or CDDSC in Canada, from creating the same kind of vision and working towards it if they really wanted to. If they don't like this sports emphasis, start with a small group of driven individuals and create something different. I'm just sick of all the "us-vs-them" antagonism that I hear all the time, instead of constructive and honest effort to walk the talk. Reply Quote
jazz Joined on 07 Април 2005 Total posts: 227	Re: UNREGISTERED COMPETITIONS: WHAT ARE THEY? 07 Март 2008 г. 00:22 Servus Think of me, long time no free session ? I also wonder about the differencies of individual IDSF member policies. Steve, you suggested 'their domestic policies may be different'. They are different. For example 1. policy pertaining to Amateur's teaching. 2. policy pertaining to regulating Age groups. 1. Please correct me if I am wrong, but aren't USA Amateurs allowed to freely teach for a fee ? Similar, in Europe except England, ( do pardon me for merging England and Europe ) as long as the Amateur teachers pay their associations fees as 'trainers'. Also in Canada, but only in last 2 years or so, the Adult Canadian 6 finalists are allowed to teach, and only the first three Senior-1 Category finalists can teach, with no mention of higher age category finalists , and in England, the amateur organization continues to disallow Amateurs to teach, if still true ? 2. Interesting is also that Senior 1 Category, defined by IDSF as 35 + appears no longer limited to minimum 35 years of age in some countries. Some IDSF members introduced and effective 2008 allow the minimum age of Senior 1 Category dancer to be just 30 years of age , as long the cummulative age of both partners, (man and women ) add up to minimum 70 years . ( this allows 3o years old to dance with 40 years old, or 32 years old with 38 years old ). Is this fair ? If it were up to IDSF to regulate their policy and rules, something they should observe during IDSF competitions which are run by IDSF Rules and sanctioned by IDSF, should IDSF not be responsible to the dancers and should there not be an effort to standardize the playing field to a) give all amateurs same chance to earn living from dance for the purpose of covering at least their ever increasing expenses and to gain more experience ? b) give amateurs same chance to compete against dancers within the prescribed age categories, instead of allowing some dancers to be 5 years younger ? And please do not say that 35 years old Senior 1 , lets say female dancers, does not have an advantage over a 44 years old Senior 1 competitor, especially in Latin. Now imagine the advantage of a "Senior" just 30 years "old" ? I am in complete agreement with having and following Rules and Policies, but there appear to be just too many exeptions. Everyone wishes for greater popularity of dance and a greater acceptance of dancesport. IDSF hopes for having dancesport in Olympics, WDC and IDSF compete for TV media and broadcasting, all trying to get sponsors involved. Imagine if more moneys is injected into the system and more price moneys are to be awarded to top dancers. If you see unfairness today, if you see exception to standardization in dance now ( I am not even touching the challenges associated with judging the sport ), imagine the exception we will see when the money in form of sponsorship and prices become a motivator. Reply Quote
quicktime2 Joined on 31 Август 2007 Total posts: 81	Re: UNREGISTERED COMPETITIONS: WHAT ARE THEY? 07 Март 2008 г. 03:12 Adwiz, you made some good points about sport in general. However your understanding of how the amateur society was formed is not right Never mind, it's not the topic. You said we must have one organization(IDSF) in charge so we all have the same rules. Well, we would like to have the same rules. That is the point of this thread. You have not said much about this however. Why do CADA, EADA and USA Dance have different rules regarding bans on competitions. I've asked CADA supporters to respond. You're one. Why do you think CADA seems out of step. Reply Quote
Adwiz Joined on 30 Септември 2006 Total posts: 15	Re: UNREGISTERED COMPETITIONS: WHAT ARE THEY? 07 Март 2008 г. 07:44 jazz: If it were up to IDSF to regulate their policy and rules, something they should observe during IDSF competitions which are run by IDSF Rules and sanctioned by IDSF, should IDSF not be responsible to the dancers and should there not be an effort to standardize the playing field I'm 100% in agreement that if the IDSF sets rules, they need to be consistent in every single jurisdiction managed by the IDSF. You are correct that there appear to be just too many exceptions. Allowing deviations undermines everything they claim to be trying to achieve, is unprofessional, and frustrates the dancers they are supposed to represent. If the IDSF can't manage its rules, then it shouldn't try to be controlling so many areas -- only those areas that it can properly manage. I've heard that a lot of dancers are frustrated with the IDSF's seeming inability or unwillingness to manage costume rules, for example. Most couples make an effort to abide by the rules, and then they end up competing against others who seem to have no regard for those same rules, yet nobody ever gets disqualified. That's completely unfair, and my view is that any rule that can't be enforced should not exist. There are too many rules as it is, in my view, just like most countries have more laws than any reasonable human being can know about. Bureaucracy loves rules. The IDSF tells national associations to enforce those rules. Yeah, right. What association is going to tell a world champion at an IDSF event that she can't go on the floor because her costume doesn't meet IDSF regulations? They sure didn't think that through properly, so that becomes one area where you begin to see inconsistencies because of poor policy. QuickTime2, I have no idea why different countries might interpret IDSF rules differently, if in fact they do. I'm not familiar with EADA activities. I do believe that USA Dance and CADA both interpret IDSF rules the same way, so if things slipped between the cracks in some areas then that's something that each organization would need to respond to on a case by case basis. It could well be a case like the costume issue I cited above, where the IDSF creates a rule that can't be enforced because they forgot to create a system of enforcement to go with the rule. Perhaps its just a case of the dance world learning to live within a system of regulations. I know this has been an issue in some areas, where IDSF rules are being imposed where these regions previously had much looser requirements. In such cases, it would make sense for the regions to make certain exceptions during the initial years of transition to a new system. However, if that kind of thing were to continue, I would certainly wonder why. Reply Quote
sambatogo Joined on 29 Август 2007 Total posts: 102	Re: UNREGISTERED COMPETITIONS: WHAT ARE THEY? 07 Март 2008 г. 18:14 To Think of me : Lets stick to the topic and not try to make things personal. In answer to you, Thank you We have enough friends, and If we need therapy we will seek professional advise. And No we won`t be joining this group as someone else, like your examples. To Quicktime2: Great questions that get to the point of the issue. As yet to be answered by anyone here regarding the actual topic. To Adwiz: Yes a good explanation of other IDSF inconsistancies, but it is relatively minor issue. But the questions of bans and threats still remains, and is not yet answered by anyone. To Luv2dance: You are right. That is what almost everyone in CADA just want to do. Dance. But it is the non dancers at the top who want to force us all into this situation, as the IDSF do not ban anymore. {They lost court cases over this issue} This is what we are trying to get to the bottom of? To All: If CADA want to ban comps and believe it is justified. Why did they not ask all their members before making such an important rule that effects all their members? Is using the reason that other sports do it , and that so it gives 1 orgainization a World Championship and control, really a satisfactory reason for limiting our freedom? Sambatogo. Reply Quote
Adwiz Joined on 30 Септември 2006 Total posts: 15	Re: UNREGISTERED COMPETITIONS: WHAT ARE THEY? 07 Март 2008 г. 21:09 sambatogo: But it is the non dancers at the top who want to force us all into this situation, as the IDSF do not ban anymore. {They lost court cases over this issue} This is what we are trying to get to the bottom of? I'm aware of the Assen case, but as I understand it, the court ruling was "no case to answer" because the Dutch National organization stepped down from its position before the ruling was actually issued. So it seems that the case was never actually decided, and thus one can't say the IDSF "lost" the case. The WDC did make a point of celebrating the NADB lawyer's response to the judge that the IDSF won't ban or restrict dancers from competing in Assen, but his verbal comment has no legal precedent and did not necessarily represent any kind of official IDSF policy. While it was great to see Assen continue unrestricted, and -- surprise! -- the DanceSport world not fall apart as a result, that's hardly a basis on which you can say that the IDSF no longer bans or that it lost court cases over the policy. It was one isolated event involving one of the world's most prominent competitions. Which other cases did they lose over this specific issue of restricting dancers from competing in unsanctioned events? If there was legal precedent, that would be very helpful for forming some kind of intelligent conversation about national federations implementing bans on behalf of the IDSF. Otherwise, it's an empty argument. Can you point to any actual documentation from the IDSF that they no longer ban athletes from dancing in unsanctioned events? This would be helpful. Reply Quote
keggs Joined on 24 Декември 2005 Total posts: 208	Re: UNREGISTERED COMPETITIONS: WHAT ARE THEY? 07 Март 2008 г. 21:57 Hi all Talking of losing court cases. It's quite poignent thatWDC supporters have quietly forgotten the 'lost' case in Spain recently. No mention of it on the WDC web site but they would have made a song and dance about it (no pun intended) if they had won. Just a thought. Regards Steve Reply Quote
P-maker Joined on 30 Декември 2007 Total posts: 12	Re: UNREGISTERED COMPETITIONS: WHAT ARE THEY? 08 Март 2008 г. 00:56 sambatogo: P-Maker, You really are a P maker by name and by nature it appears! You obviously have a very limited point of view. The training was for the top 3 0r 6 CADA dancers so they could teach and make money to support their training you idiot! Sambatogo to Think of me : "Lets stick to the topic and not try to make things personal. " Say, is this Sambatogo-make of a pot calling a kettle black ? Think of me, is there a flaw with critical reasoning somewhere (that is a proper medical term is it not in your profession ?) Thank you all for stepping in my defence, this forum is attended by just and fair... I was unaware CDDSC has provided training for the CADA's champions ( if it ever has ) to enable them to teach. I certainly have not expected to be called an idiot by the Sambatogo klan. I am grateful however they came through clean and clear showing "class", and displaying "their" colours and I am also pleased you made a point of making a permanent record of such unbecoming Forum behaviour. Thank you. Now back to the topic I think that Rules which are put in place must be reinforced or some dancers suffer injustice. Your point made about the dress code is well taken. A few years back a female dancer purchased a gown from a champion dancer, who won competitions in that same gown...just to be stopped before stepping onto the floor and warned that next time she better place more coverings and more stones over the chest area, that the gown was not acceptable... Others say that Rules are made just to be challenged and broken. In another thread someone noted that the use of inhalers may be prohibited by IDSF, and I would be curious if IDSF or a member nation would punish an asthmatic for using a prescribed asthma medication not to sufficate. I suppose someone will challenge the Rules, and if organisations feel very strongly about defending their Rules, there may be many other court actions. Too bad a common sense cannot prevail. Reply Quote
quicktime2 Joined on 31 Август 2007 Total posts: 81	Re: UNREGISTERED COMPETITIONS: WHAT ARE THEY? 08 Март 2008 г. 02:25 Dear adwiz: Let's make it simple 1-2-3. 1. Danish National Association tells their members they will suspend any member participating in ASSEN 2. Competitors go to Court saying this is unjust and they want to attend ASSEN without being suspended. 3. The Danish National Association tells the Court they will now not suspend any of their members who participate at ASSEN. Further neither will the IDSF. It seems pretty clear to me. You weaken the credibility of IDSF by trying to spin this as if it weren't a victory for those amateurs who had the guts to stand up to their IDSF National Association. Reply Quote