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Joined on 05 Август 2005
Total posts: 233
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Re: Crystal Leaf
20 Април 2008 г. 12:25
Crystal Leaf is a successful event, and probably profitable because of the inclusion of Pro Am.
Quality of judging, quality of dancers , of appreciative audience, quality of the dancesport event, inclusion of IDSF at several age categories and styles-Bravo !
Is CCC is `the good competition`you are referring to.....I got first confused, since this was about Crystal Leaf. You may perhaps want to pour your grief with CADA & CDF in another topic.
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Joined on 30 Септември 2006
Total posts: 15
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Re: Crystal Leaf
21 Април 2008 г. 17:29
dancinggrl, I know that the judging at CCC has been discussed in other threads here (some of it with incorrect or at least incomplete information), but I'd like to know what you think represents a "mess" of a judging panel. The panel consisted of seven judges who were selected based on regional representation (regions with higher numbers of members were allowed two judges, while other regions were allowed one to keep things fair). The judges included Blackpool finalists, Canadian champions and other competitive champions who ranked highly in their dancing careers. Not all judges need to have competed, as the experience of a judge is far more important than their dancing background.
I agree with others who have posted here that the CCCs would be better served with a larger judging panel (I would recommend 11 judges, with at least five from overseas), but never less than 9.
Here is a list of the approved judging panel and the background I was able to research:
Non-voting Chair:
Barb Child
Judges:
Stephane Champagne-PQ
France Mousseau-PQ
Ann Harding-Trafford-Ont
Angela Mostovoy-Ont
Bill Jacobsen-Alta
Denis Tremblay-BC
Jane Edgett-Atlantic
Invigilator (for Non-Championship events):
Mair Davies-Atlantic
Angela Mostovoy and her husband Vadim were professional International 10-dance champions. In 1989, they became Ukainian 10-Dance Champions and represented Ukraine in the World 10 Dance Championships. In 1999, they became Canadian 10-Dance representatives. They represented Canada many times, in 2001 and 2002. She and her husband are highly respected as coaches and judges.
Stephane Champagne and Manon Hurteau placed in the top 24 in the 2000 World Professional Latin championships in Dortmund, Germany and also placed in top 48 in Professional Latin in Blackpool that year (top 24 in Samba and top 25 in Paso). In the 1999 Blackpool event, they placed in top 13 in Professional Rising Star Latin.
France Mousseau, partnered with Jean Marc Genereux, placed 3rd in the 1997 World Professional 10-Dance Championship. They won professional Latin in Classique du Quebec in 1996, came in third in professional Latin at Ohio Star Ball in 1992, and enjoyed a top 10 finish in Blackpool in 1994. They also placed highly in professional Standard events. She has judged many comps and is very highly regarded as a judge and coach.
Ann Hardin-Trafford is one of the most highly regarded teachers and adjudicators in the world. Partnered with Kerry Wilson and representing Australia, they were Standard champions for years, including a 3rd place finish in the World Championships in 1974.
Denis Tremblay, partnered with Mirielle Veilleux, was an undefeated Canadian Amateur Champion in Standard and Latin, and the holder of 13 Canadian Professional Championships (Standard / Latin + 10 Dance). They were the first North American couple to ever win at the Blackpool Dance Festival, and the only Canadians to reach the Grand Finals of the British open Professional Championships (Standard). They were the only North Americans to place in the top three of two different World Professional Championships (Standard and 10-dance).
Jane Edgett is one of the most highly regarded adjudicators in the world. Since 1974, she has judged three World Championships as well as many US Championships, including USBC, The US Open, Ohio Star Ball, Yankee Classic and Embassy Ball. Her judging has included Canadian Pro and Amateur championships several times.
Bill Jacobsen doesn't have much of a history that my research could find. He comes from the Arthur Murray world.
Phil Lee had to replace Angela after she became very ill during the event and needed to be hospitalized (Angela's husband Vadim replaced her for a few minutes while waiting for Phil to arrive, and these emergency replacements were approved by the CADA board at the event). Phil and his partner Patricia Goh were Ontario Closed Amateur Standard champions in 1999. After turning pro they competed in 2001 at Blackpool.
So, I'm pretty comfortable with the judging panel that was provided for CCCs. The Crystal Leaf panel was excellent, but also included a large percentage of Ontario judges, which out-of-province athletes would tend to think is an unfair advantage to Ontario couples.
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Joined on 22 Април 2008
Total posts: 1
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Re: Crystal Leaf
22 Април 2008 г. 03:05
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Re: Who is thebest male dancer in Quebec?
Friday, 27 May 2005 20:20
ok, I agree, she has no technique, but she can make herself look very sexy on the floor. However, Francis... have uever noticed that Francis' hips are almost larger than his shulders? that's just wierd! he has a pretty face but that's about it! Plus he is way too in love with himself! |
Wasn't it Fankindofgirl ? How does it go about the Leopard's spots ?
You giving Sunshine2 a lesson ?
________________________________________________________________
Ksana:
My God, people like this have no respect for anybody and anything. This is just disgusting!!! This person cannot be a real dancer if he only juge other people. Maybe he/she should concentrate on his/her own dancing and business. Maybe he/she should thing that each person is unique and has his own style. Maybe he/she should understand that people love dancing for itself and not becuase they like intrigues, politics, to show off and dirty talks about others.
Maybe the above will help that person to grow up which will help in his/her dancing career.
Good luck to this perosn to become an adult.
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Joined on 08 Март 2008
Total posts: 5
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Re: Crystal Leaf
22 Април 2008 г. 03:53
Dear Adwiz
I agree there were some first rate judges at the CCC. But out of the 9 professionals you listed probably 5 of them never ranked high in a Canadian Amateur championship or a comparable event.
I don't think it is only me. Most competitors don't want to be judged by someone who has never danced as well as they do. You may be pretty comfortable with this but not everyone is.
Also there were three judges from one studio.
Also I understand there were judges used who judged last year, which is against the rules.
Also three of the judges were part of the 4 professionals who formed the CDF. We have had these same three judges a lot (too many) times before. Doesn't it seem there is politics involved? Do these politics have to involve the competitors?
You would recommend 11 judges with at least 5 from overseas. That would be excellent. This wasn't that kind of a panel. I thought CADA should have done better. It seems you agree.
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Joined on 13 Януари 2005
Total posts: 468
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Re: Crystal Leaf
22 Април 2008 г. 09:59
Dancingrl,
You are saying that many dancers are not comfortable being judged by people who have not been dancing as well as they are dancing.
I do have several problems with this mentality.
First of all, EVERY (okay, nearly every) dancer overestimates how well they dance. I have yet to hear a competitior say "oh, these other 2 couple would have deserved to be placed higher than us"... So you are basically saying that when they make a judgement whether the adjudicator has been dancing better than they are or not, the dancer is fair, and competent to make this call? Essentially, if somebody shares this view, that means they think THEY are qualified to make a better judgement on somebody's abilities (while most often not even seeing them dancing...) than the judges themselves... strange double standard!
Second, you can't really compare the past with the present. Dancing evolves and changes, and while the fundamentals remain the same, people dance differently, the competitive landscape changes, so you can't really compare yesterday's results with today's results. So how can you make this call on a judge dancing better or worse than you?
Third, it is based on the assumption that you judge (i.e. see things and know things) at the same level as you dance. This assumption is definately wrong. most couples already know and see more than what they can dance on the floor. It is natural that you have a lesson, you fill your head, then you try to actually do it - with more or less success. People usually have far more in their head than in their legs (although I have met some super talented people who have no clue what they are doing but they move fantastically).
And if this was not enough, think about this. Considering that dancing progresses, I think you can pretty confidently say that if we ONLY talk about level of dancing (i.e not about knowledge), there can be only about 6-8 people (highly disputable, but I would say if you ask anybody to list people ONLY based on level of dancing, you would not get more names from anybody - even if the names were different from everybody) in the world who have danced better than, say, Mirko Gozzoli does today. So do you seriously think that Mirko would not consider ANY judging panel to be qualified enough to judge his dancing??? And he is supposed to be a role model, so are dancers at lower levers justified to not trust judging panels after all, based on how well they think the adjudicators have been judging?
Dancingrl, this is not against you at all. I just think that while quality and impartial judging is a very important topic, dancers themselves are often concentrating on areas totally irrelevant, thus increasing their own frustration and diverting energies from their own improvement. It is so much easier to blame the judges than going back and practicing harder.
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Joined on 30 Септември 2006
Total posts: 15
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Re: Crystal Leaf
22 Април 2008 г. 16:46
Dancingrl, it does not concern me that some of those judges didn't rank high in Canada. Who cares? Almost all of them ranked high in other countries, and many of them on a global scale. But I don't believe that a judge has to have been a national champion to be qualified as a judge. Some great dancers would make poor judges, just as many great dancers are not great teachers.
There are a limited number of judges in this country and ultimately it makes no difference whether they come from the same studio -- many pros within the same studio will have different viewpoints and perspectives on what makes a great dancer, and that is what creates fairness in the overall system. The same goes for whether they formed CDF. What's the problem with that? As I understand it from reading the various press releases and issues that flew around, CDF was born out of a frustration over the stagnant old boy's network that CDDSC had become. Do you forget that CDDSC issued a proclamation which would have forced all competitors to join their own amateur organization in order to be judged at all? Fighting back against that kind of closed system was the basis for CDF. That kind of passion for a fair system gives me more faith that CDF founders would be great judges!
I believe that judges take their jobs very seriously, and wish more competitors shared that viewpoint. I'm sick of the suggestions I hear constantly that politics are involved in judging. It's so easy for competitors to throw that out like some kind of excuse for their results, when in fact there is zero evidence of this. When you examine the results in detail, and especially when you examine video of an event and compare the couples one by one, you always see that the marks were fully justified.
Still, I think that CCCs are best served with a strong representation of judges from those countries where the winners of the Canadian event are going to be judged next -- the worlds. What's the point of having only Canadian judges when the criteria that these competitors will ultimately be judged on could be different when they go to the world championships? Most other countries don't restrict their national championships to judges from their own country, probably for that same reason.
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Joined on 29 Август 2007
Total posts: 102
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Re: Crystal Leaf
23 Април 2008 г. 00:27
Sambatogo agrees that the any canadian championship with non competitors or lowly former competitors adjudicating is disespectful to the competitors. However, as said before, the CDF criteria is very low $500 and you are in!! Just over a day or weekend for acreditation it appears. A great criteria that I am sure many competitors are thrilled to know surely?
Also, Is it right that non Canadians choose our Canadaian Representatives to the world Championship? Can we guarentee that they have Canadaian interests at heart? Maybe they have a couple that they are training to compete against our national champion and may not mark if considered a threat?
Adwiz. It is not known what you base your knowledge of the "CDDSC old boys club" comments about? But as since many of the former CDDSC excecutive are women and are the formers and current excecutive of the CDF. Don`t you mean old girls club? If there were problems in your eyes before, then you must be so happy about the obvious improvement now? As is testament to so many ,not just look at the great advances and harmony that the CDF and CADA have bought to Candaian dancing since their partnership?
Canadaian dancing has never been in such a disgraceful state!!
Sambatogo.
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Joined on 30 Септември 2006
Total posts: 15
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Re: Crystal Leaf
23 Април 2008 г. 07:47
 sambatogo
Is it right that non Canadians choose our Canadaian Representatives to the world Championship? Can we guarentee that they have Canadaian interests at heart? Maybe they have a couple that they are training to compete against our national champion and may not mark if considered a threat?
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This speaks to the point I made earlier: there is no evidence that judges go through this kind of silly thought process. If evidence exists, please share it. If this kind of political favoritism is an issue, it would be an issue worldwide, yet the national championships of most countries include judges from other countries. So obviously it is only an imaginary or theoretical problem, not a real life problem.
Canadian dancing is alive and well. Sure, there is room for improvement, and areas that are weaker than they should be, but the same goes for any sport I can think of. The way to make it better is for people to get together in a democratic way and work as a community to make improvements, not to constantly whine and complain about how bad things are.
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Joined on 05 Август 2005
Total posts: 233
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Re: Crystal Leaf
24 Април 2008 г. 07:20
It is refreshing to see two parties, who cannot speak under their own names, discuss their differencies in this forum. But please remember where to do it. Respectfully, this is about Crystal Leaf, not about CCC .
As for the judging, the judges know who is better and who is not as good, of course with a small margin of error.
The discrepancies in judging you read obout, you hear about is when the judge acts against his/her own knowledge, and purpously makes a decission to promote, or , not to promote one or more dancers in a given competition.
Certainly there is an evidence but no one wishes to embarass any judge in particular, after all as you said and listed their great accomplishments, they have pretty good history.
WE do not see into theit motivations, but just follow the common logic- you do not bite the hand that feeds you- and you may get your answer. Then do little hoework, see who takes lessons with whom and be happy you came to reasonable explanation based on a resonable evidence.
It had little to do with dancing, if a judge hqas had more or less experience as a dancer, and if he/she placed 1st, 4th or whreever on the World ranking..
They are just people just you and I, and they are influenced and motivated, and they simply act just as Pavlovs dogs when motivated. Nothing new, nithing extraordinary, in fact a pretty boring stuff, and a sitiation very clear to all dancers and non-dancers alike.
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Joined on 07 Април 2005
Total posts: 227
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Re: Crystal Leaf
24 Април 2008 г. 20:26
hi TOM , this would go well with light&easy question if the judges should be allowed to meet -by giving private lessons to- competitors, they would be judging the next day.
Interesting how some judges-to avoid naming any-would give 5 recalls to those who attended lessons and seminars, while the rest of judges were rather cold to the same dancers.
To answer the question, I would prefer if the private lessons and dealings with judges were done after the competition is over, and I agree, this has nothing to do with judges ability to dance or if they placed in the finals in a major world competition.
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