Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION

02 Май 2008 г. 14:51

Woa, you certainly have a bit of a justle going on between you.

To be honest I think everyone (both of you as well as IDSF, WDC and all other organizations officials) are totally convinced that what they are doing is for the good of dancing. I resuse to believe that (perhaps with the exception of very few) people would be willing to commit their time and effort to deliberately cause trouble. They may think that a short term chaos is neccessary to in the end have a wonderful world where everyone in dancing prospers.

Also I believe that whatever most of them and you think, the fundamental problem (though not the cause) of the current situation is that there is a lack of communication and willingness of understanding and acceptance that maybe, just maybe "the other party" is at least partially right in something. I think people get and got agitated and upset - which could and can be avoided by communication - see above.

So in a sense I support what you say Steve about hoping that people will eventually end up talking to each other. However this is severly hampered byt the temperament and approach of quite a few people (within and outside of both organization). I think strong character is required of anybody doing any competitive activity, dancing is no exception, and most people in the organizations do come from this background. It will make it very difficult for these organizations to make inroads with teh curent situation and also with winning people to their cause if these people remain in influential positions - I myself have experienced extreme arrogance. I am sure we all have. However I am not naming the organization because I know that the organization is not equal to the few people who cause offence. On the other hand I am quite sure a lot of people do and this results in reactions that I believe ultimately do not serve the good of the dancing world.

However I think this is where we are. Until mostly emotional reactions control both organizations (and let's be honest, creating the event in the topic subject is a result of such an emotional reaction - I am sure people supporting it will say it is a positive supportive spirit while people against it will say it is spite or stubbornness), there is no way that we will have a chance of openly discussing the direction of the dance(sport) itself. And this is the bit that I find most unfortunate.

Though just to react to one thing you have said Steve: I am not entirely convinced that IDSF is within their right to say people are not alowed to participate in whichever event. Their jurisdiction is their competitive system. This is an intricate legal question which I am not entirely sure about especially since there is international law, binding agreements between members, members of members, depending on who signes up to what ruleset, individual rights of freedom at play. As shown by several lawsuits already none of it is a foregone conclusion. Remember that none of the dancers are actually directly members of IDSF. Members are typically members of the members of IDSF, in a lot of countries it is even a 3 level relationship. And straight away, IDSF rules are not immediately applicable to all dancers unless they enter an IDSF competition (and with this I mean IDSF Open or similar, not a member country's competition), because member countries create their own rules and they decide how much they want to implement from the IDSF ruleset. After all, IDSF is "owned" by the country organizations, not the other way around. Anyway - all I am trying to say it is not at all as easy as most people think.

Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION

03 Май 2008 г. 06:32

I understand that so far as England is concerned a letter is being sent to  EADA enquiring  to their exact position with regard to all those who participate in the WDC Am League World Open.Amateur. Chamionships.  If a reply is received this will certainly clarify the position for England rather than vague threats and attempted intinidation.  The same should be done in all countries.

Why is it important?  Well what happens if an Adjudicator (IDSF licence holder) of the 2008 WDC Am League  World Open Amateur Champs is selected for the 2009 UK Open or British Open or International . Will those countries who are IDSF members (under IDSF pressure) forbid their members to compete in these events?

Could this be the excuse for which some have been searching for a few years?

Peter I want to stick only with the topic but very many thanks for confirming exactly the situation as in my opening post and which I repeat below

IDSF athlets"may not particpate.  Excuse me!!  IDSF has NO athletes.

All dancers belong to associations in their own country and not IDSF

Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION

04 Май 2008 г. 06:57

@Keggs-  I am glad that we can agree probably we agree on many other things-

Please can I explain something  and Peter covered this very well in his last paragraph of his excellent post . Outside of direct IDSFevents -  "Opens",  "Grand Slams",  Championships  etc IDSF rules do not take precedence which is exactly why they are so wrong to make such announcements regarding the WDC Am League Open World Amateur Championship.  IDSF are either pretending to have power where they have none or attempting to usurp power and exercise control where they have none.  Neither option should be acceptable to anyone involved with dance.

Each and every country should be free to make their own decisions free of threats and intimidation.  I mean not just what is in the open but what goes on in secret.

Keggs you must be aware that championships like the British Open, the Dutch Open, the German Open, the US Open  are run under the rules of the home country without regard for IDSF Rules. 

Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION

05 Май 2008 г. 10:30

@simplydancer-  Please forgive me as I am not attempting to be rude but if you need me to  "please explain to me what exactly the "trade" of the professionals is and how IDSF is trying to destroy it?"  then there is little purpose to my explaining as I seriously doubt you would be interested.  The information and facts are all around you and you only have to look listen read if you truly wish to learn.

I would prefer to remain with the topic which you have unfortunately ignored. However what I would like to explain is that many Professionals never danced as Amateurs. The  Professionals have always trained the Amateurs (from the top down) and still do to this day so that they could improve and move on to compete with pride as a Professional with the very best.  It is nartural progession and evolution.

It is in many countries Professionals who run dance schools/clubs and bring beginners into dance and these new people move on to eventually become amateur competitors.  I do not know of a single IDSF member who operates a dance school to bring people into the competitive world nor one that trains and develops dance competitors.  In fact I know few people in charge of IDSF member organisations capable of this and especially not the IDSF Executive...

I think you put the cart before the horse because it is the Professionals who provide the strong foundation on which the dance house is built.  It is the jerry building opportunists who create the cracks in the structure whilst the foundation remain strong..

Please remember no one asks IDSF competitors to leave IDSF and join WDC they do so of their own free choice.  Do you know the reason?

Honestly I find your whole argument convoluted.  You believe yesterdays great amateurs who are todays Professionals are the ones at fault since they left the IDSF because they have the first hand experience to know there can be a better world?  

Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION

05 Май 2008 г. 11:42

@Keggs- I am so sorry that we stray so far from the original post and I would far rather you start a new topic.

Nowhere at anytime have I stated that the IDSF is totally wrong and the WDC are totally right.  When you have humans you have faults.  I am highly critical of many WDC members. The most important fact is that WDC have the confidence to allow their competitotrs and adjudicators to participate in events of any organisation. IDSF lack this confidence and attempt to impose restrictions and remove the right to trade in accordance with ones profession.  The fact remains that the integrity of some people is called into question.

Interesting is that you write WDC were totally wrong to create the Amateur League but you make no mention of the IDSF giving birth to the IPDSC.  It is this infant that has resulted in the IDSF rejecting every olive branch offered by the WDC and their determination to go full steam ahead for total domination and finally comit infanticide..

It is interesting you feel WDC should have rejected the many many amateurs who signed a declaration for the freedom to simply compete and the thousands who could no longer accept the corruption surrounding them.

Even you must reluctantly accept that IDSF have totally abandoned their position which you say you support of no Amateur and no Professional by their giving birth to the IPDSC a PROFESSIONAL organisation. They even proclaimed this in Court. That must be one lesson reason for you to support them.

UNESCO recognise the WDC as the world authority on dance why can IDSF not accept that?  Why must they create their own empire?. 

I also find it interesting that you reject the fact that it is IDSF who deliberately blurred the lines between Professionals and Amateurs in their endeavours to gain control.  If they honoured the original concept of Amateur and Professional 99% of the problems would disappear and a far fairer situation become operative for far more than 90% of amateurs.

I see no double standards in Amateurs being Amateurs and Professionals being Professionals but I do when the IDSF encourage Amateurs to perform Professional duties and at the same time introducing a system unfair to the huge majority of their members..

Every member of IDSF member has their own policy on Pro/Am and that should also help you to understand IDSF rules do not take precedence as you previously believed.

Look at the dancesportsinfo results.  Do we really want a situation where we have a class with every letter from A to Z  and every number from 1 to 100 and no one has a clue what any of it means?  And a world champ for every group? 

Surely Professionals and Amateurs are acceptable stages of development  and we should honour the literal meaning.

I am sure simply dancer would prefer to speak for themselves and answer the issues I raised in response to their post. Points you ignore.

Neither you nor simplydancer will get any argument from me that the top so called amateurs have achieved an incredibly high standard.  The direct result of the IDSF allowing them to unfairly derive large income and sponsorship thereby creating great inequality and disadvantage for the majority. I am in favour of amateur equality you and simplydancer are not.  However the fact still remains that these people eventually decide to leave IDSF based on personal experiences and a desire to compete with the best. 

Just as an afterthought in those "terrible bad old days in the 50s and 60 70s" when we had true amateur and pro I think you will find that the likes of Eggleton, Hurley, Gleave, Fletcher, Maxwell moving on from true Amateur to Pro achieved at least semi final status immediately.