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Re: WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION


onyourtoes Joined on 12 Февруари 2007 Total posts: 74	Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION 08 Май 2008 г. 08:27 @Keggs. I can assure you that I have never been asleep and unaware of the situation facing our danceworld today. Before making my own decision as to which side I could most support as it becomes ever more obvious that the IDSF have no intention of altering their policies I did considerable research and asked many questions. If I have to make a choice I want to make an informed choice and know my reasons. I do not wish to see a split but it seems that this is what the the non dancing politicians want. If this were not the case then we would not have this topic. If Martyns story is as you say then it should be very clear that there is only one party resonsible - the one refusing to alter their position and allow their members to partake their sport where they wish. That is the party to which your anger and despair should be directed. Best regards Reply Quote
keggs Joined on 24 Декември 2005 Total posts: 208	Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION 08 Май 2008 г. 08:42 Oh Dear You have missed the point I am making. It no longer matters who is or is not to blame. What matters is that both sides see the error of their ways. What matters is both sides drop their mutual antagonism and start talking properly. If a split does take place I too will make my decion based on informed choice but I don't want to have to make that choice. I want unity and unity of purpose. You are right that the politicians are probably the cause of these problems but they are solvable if there is the will to do so. Martyn's story is apt. We should learn from Karate's mistakes. This story should be read by everyone. For my part I would like to pay tribute to him for allowing me to post it. If you have the power to influence then I urge that you do so. If there are any ardaent IDSF supporters here who also have influence then please read this story and urge the IDSF to alter stop their own antagonism and start talking again with the IDSF. If Donnie Burns is the problem (and I understand that he is) get past it. Wars are only stopped when you talk to the enemy. Best wishes Steve Reply Quote
onyourtoes Joined on 12 Февруари 2007 Total posts: 74	Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION 08 Май 2008 г. 09:18 @Keggs. You think I have missed the point I think all that I say is very relevant and exactly the point. For you I must always be wrong naive ill informed disturbing asleep or living 2 centuries ago in Victorian times and this I find very sad. Do you believe this is how you create peace and harmony? Please tell me how you know Mr Burns is the problem. My understanding is that he holds his office because he is supported by his fellow Professionals. The Ballroom Dancers Federation in England made many of the same changes as did the WDC. Surely if Mr Burns had no support and did not have the confidence of his colleagues he would be removed from his position..Please do not say this is why Professionals cannot be trusted. I read Mr Burns Open Letter to Mr Freitag inviting him to talk and I read Mr. Freitag public rejection of this invitation. Please do not say again that this makes me naive. I read about many things the IDSF say they are doing - and people say "at least IDSF are doing something - and one even 2 and 3 years later nothing has been done. Personally I prefer what Mr Burns and his colleagues offer me to that which Mr Freitag Mr Maxwell and their colleagues offer me. . What I have learned is that when Mr. Breuer retired from President of WDC .Mr Maxwell and Mr Burns were the two candidates for the position. Mr Maxwell was rejected by his compatriots. We can all see what has developed by this rejection. This is when it was decided that one group would work to divide first the Professionals and then the entire danceworld. What I have also learned is that in many countries where there is no Mr Burns there is a deep division and even splits Yes I do know and take account of IDU and IDSA and I also know why the one was resurrected and the other newly formed. I can also understand why the WDC Am League was formed. One group cannot possibly hope to condemn to the wilderness and dance extinction a quickly growing group of people who have the integrity to think for themselves and make their own choices. Almost all these people are coached by WDC members and you expect them to turn their back on these people to please Mr. Freitag and his colleagues? Did you read the letter by Richard and Anne Gleave? YES I would prefer a united world with all working together but the more I read the more I despair and think it is not going to happen. To try and blame only one man (on what I have learned the wrong man) is never going to bring unity. I was told in 2005 by a leading then amateur "when Bauman goes things will get better" BUT they got worse. I am angry with myself that I move away from the topic and reply to you on something which is not connected with the WDCAmateur League World Championship . Reply Quote
keggs Joined on 24 Декември 2005 Total posts: 208	Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION 08 Май 2008 г. 09:34 Please onyourtoes just listen to your own words. You are doing exactly what the you accuse the IDSF of doing. The IDSF rejected the WDC's offer of talks because THey perceived Donnie Burns as the problem. Whether or not that is true is irrelevant. The Amateur League and its World Championship would not have been created iof the WDC hadn't decided to create it. If I was a member of the IDSF presidium what would you as a member of the WDC presidium expect me to do? I would probably react in just the same way that the IDSF has reacted. That's the point. And so it goes on. This has got to stop. I am not accusing you of anything. I am simply trying to get you to understand that what the WDC or IDSF has done in the past is no refelection on what can be done in the future if both sides and I mean both sides drop their stupid, ridiculous antagonism towards each other and sit doenm properly using people who both sides can trust. Please read Martyn's story. And re-read it if necessary, as I have done. This is exactly the topic. Yours in exasperation Steve Reply Quote
sambatogo Joined on 29 Август 2007 Total posts: 92	Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION 09 Май 2008 г. 00:28 Sambatogo thinks that that you are pretty much right on all that you state. Well done! Some will never see the light unfortunately. Reply Quote
onyourtoes Joined on 12 Февруари 2007 Total posts: 74	Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION 09 Май 2008 г. 07:59 @Keggs; It comes as no surprise that yet again for you I am the one who is wrong. Do you know that when you point the finger there are 3 pointing back? I am at a loss how I you reach your conclusion I am doing the same as the IDSF ! I am not going to go through a list (I will if you wish) but I can give you many things deserving of condemnation done by the IDSF that I have not and never would. Gradually you have modified your words so that in your last post you apparently wish to be seen as totally neutral. However in your heart you know that is not true and just as is the case with the IDSF for you some matters are "non negotiable" plus constantly repeat mistrust for your "fellow" professionals demonstrating you have already taken your position Fair enough but just face up to it. You asked me "If I was a member of the IDSF presidium what would you as a member of the WDC presidium expect me to do?" Well if you were serious in your words then I would expect you to operate the same Open Market Policy as the WDC operate with regard to IDSF and IPDSC events. You seem to support or bans boycotts etc which will never improve matters but will make them worse even if you deny this. Without proof or justification you have stated that Mr. Burns is "the problem". This is the line put out by the IDSF to attempt to damage the credibility of Mr. Burns. Have you noticed how the Open Letter of Mr Bauman was received by the colleagues of Mr Burns? If it had any effect it was to strengthen the position of Mr Burns and the resolve of his fellow members They realise if they bowed to the demands of the IDSF then in a very short period of time they would have a new victim as their target. Targets personally selected by one man holding grudges. I am not sure what your "irrelevant" comment is meant to mean but I sincerely trust that you were indicating you strongly condemned IDSF for using Mr Burns as their pathetic excuse in refusing to talk and not to seek a harmonious dance future , Please let me show below 4 portions from the report at the 2007 IDSF AGM by Mr Bains the then Policy Director and 1st Vice President . These most certainly are not out of context- after reading please do you still blindly believe that if "we" make suggestions we will change the IDSF position when they dumped Mr Bain for his words?. Do you still believe I am wrong in becoming increasingly pessimistic No. 1 I write full of concern and foreboding. Not for myself, though maybe I should be.No, my concern is for my beloved IDSF, which I fear will be greatly damaged by the current path we are on. I am concerned in three areas about where IDSF is heading: The breakdown of the principle that IDSF is made up of national member bodies Role of the IPDSC and its relationship to IDSF The creation of a permanent state of international war with the WDC No.2 For the first time ever that I am aware of, we as a Presidium acted contrary to theclearly expressed wish of the members. We declined to give any direction, or establish any policy that would in any way restrict or direct the IPDSC. We allowed the IPDSC to establish World Championships, thereby diminishing our own IDSF World Championships which have been open to professionals for more than five years, and allowed the IPDSC to declare war on our behalf with the WDC . Far from the IPDSC being subject to the policies and administrative decisions of theIDSF; the IPDSC is driving IDSF policy. I am totally opposed to this. It isdamaging to the IDSF and has weakened our position. I am also deeply concernedby the involvement of Mr Peter Maxwell in the IPDSC, the conflict between hisIPDSC role and his IDJTA role and the potential for his personal battles with other parts of the DanceSport community to be converted into IDSF battles. No.3 I believe that this is our current position, to create war with WDC, whether by outright strategy or by default. There is a belief amongst some of my colleagues that we are now so strong that we can simply crush the WDC, and that any cooperation with the WDC is against the best interests of the IDSF. But I believe that we are actually strengthening the WDC by our belligerence. Many fair minded people who previously were happy to support the positive steps IDSF was taking for the development of DanceSport, are now saying that the IDSF has becomeso arrogant that they will switch their support back to the WDC. No. 4 I note that the WDC voted overwhelmingly at its 2007 General Meeting to approve the Zurich Memorandum. Of course we voted to approve the Zurich Memorandum in2002 and some of my colleagues say that it is too late for the WDC and that the trainhas already left the station Can I stress these are the words of someone heavily involved in a member association and once a prominent poart of IDSF and a major architect of their policies.i More and more I personally am convinced that the solution lies in the hands (or feet) and the hearts and minds of the dancers. They have 2 choices. 1. Refuse to compete anywhere until there is a solution. 2. Compete anywhere and everywhere they choose. If this is led from the top then it will have a most sobering effect. If a dancer in one country is banned or disciplined then all fellow countrymen refuse to compete at home and abroad, Some have told me that this would damage the IDSF. Is that important when the dancers win? Surely their own country association which provides the greatest opportunity for them to compete is more important. Surely the dancers are the ones that count and in fact ARE Dance or Dancesport We should not have a competition between this and that organisation but a united danceworld for the benefit of all and we are not going to achieve it the way we are heading Positive even drastic action is needed Incidentally there are some who perceive Mr. Freitag as a problem. Under his leadership the relationships have deteriorated greatly. Under his leadership he made no attempt to distance himself and IDSF from the words of Mr. Galvagno He carried out no disciplinary action against Mr Galvagno. . In the real sports world most certainly a charge of "bringing the game into disrepute" would have been laid The reality is Mr Galvagno was honoured by the IPDSC thereby that body damaging their reputation and integrity Some believe Mr Maxwell is a problem. Certainly anyonewho seeks peace and harmony and one body cannot support acts which cause divisions and increase the difficulty in an already bad decision. To make things worse is no way to make them better. Mr Bain is an Australian. The small number who believe that the Australian dance scene is the Blue Print for success overlook a number of issues. They also scathingly refer to the WDC members in Australia as "a rump". I cannot accept that anyone truly interested in harmony and peace would use such language. Please can I make a genuine and sincere request.. We move this debate to where it belongs. The topic is about WDC vs IDSF - No contest. Certainly this is where I will post any further responses from you which do not directly concern the threats being made by the IDSF with regard to the 2008 WDC Am League World Open Amateur Open Championships. Unfortunately we are now so far from the actual topic and this I believe is a great shame. The topic deals with grave issues and to attempt to divert attention from them does not indicate neutrality rather a fear of facing the reality or deep support for IDSF no matter what they do to prevent one world of dance unless it is THEIR world and under their control. Reply Quote
keggs Joined on 24 Декември 2005 Total posts: 208	Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION 09 Май 2008 г. 10:27 Dear onyourtoes Your response was very long so will take time to digest. In general, I agree. And yes, I did mean that if the IDSF perceive Donnie Burns as a problem and equally Carlos Freitag from the WDC point view then both sides should put their differences aside include the animosity in connection with these individuals. As for the WDC event, I personally would like the WDC offer to cancel this event as a gesture of goodwill. That said, if the IDSF refuse to see this and refuse to remove their so-called ban, then I will support the event. I am in complete agreement with dancers being able to dance where and when they want. Of course I am, but my belief (it isn't yours) is that the WDC did create something that they knew would cause the IDSF to react. And react they did. It was not right but it was perfectly natural for them to do so. The WDC did in retaliation to the IDSF own stupidity. You are right in saying that I cannnot be completely neutral. No one can. I do support the general direction of the IDSF but I di not support the way it behaves. Equally, while I in principle support the idea of a genuine open market, I do not support the general direction the WDC is taking us. However, in all this I am not prepared to tie my mast to one side or the other as I a mindful of Martyn's experience. Unity is what we both want I am sure but it is becoming increasingly difficult to see if this wiil happen, but we have to try. And the only way we can ensure that this happens is to stop the antagonism, threats and bully boy tactics start negotiating. The dispute between these two organisations reminds me of 2 dogs fighting over the same poisoned piece of meat. Both know it's poisoned but neither will give way because both are trying to prove to their supporters in heir packs they are top dog. The only thing that will happen is both dogs will be dea and their supporters left to pick up the pieces. Wouldn't be more fruitful if both dogs dropped the poisoned meat and searched out together for a piece of fresh meat they and their supporters could share. Best wishes Steve Reply Quote
think of me Joined on 05 Август 2005 Total posts: 228	Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION 09 Май 2008 г. 12:20 Dear Onyourtoes and Keggs, to an outsider who wants to be neutral you might as well represent, one - the IDSF and the other -the WDC. You both have a passion for dance and the dance order, you both present your facts well, you both agree you want a change to better, yet you both declare your fundamental disagreement how to achieve it, and the most interestingly, you both sit in opposite corner of the ring believing the other is wrong and not being able to even admit you may be wrong to the other. In another words, all important things aside, what is important is that You are right. Isn't this what the dispute between IDSF and WDC is all about ? Each side aware of some wrong within their own institutions, but unable to admit it, and therefore unable to resolve the problem and to go on ? I read Keggs comments - and I say, he is right. I read Onyourtoes' comments - and I agree. Yet, you two, while seemingly in agreement on some points, and it appears to us the interested readers, you do this from political reasons to appear reasonable and ready to "solve" your personal antagonism, are opposed one to the other's ideas and reasonings, digging out proofs from archives, using Mr. Bains and Galvagno on and on, and how many times are we going to see Mr. Burns, and Mr. Freitag's names ? Have you not noticed how few Professionals enter IDSF Championships ? Te ll me, leaving all aside, if you were in business, would you pay an admission price to IDSF competitions to see the Professionals competing ? And if you would, would you see your hard earned moneys wasted if you saw just 2 or 3 Professionals in the only round = the Final, "battling it out" for the First and the Second positions ? Yet I appreciate your ongoing discussion ( attempts to discredit one another in order to prove one of you is right - and the other has just an 'unfortunate ill perceived point of view, which need be discredited and corrected to the liking of the other ) which is a mirror reflection what is going on between IDSF and WDC. Both right, both trying to prove their points, both unable to be genuine, and to make a sincere attempt to agree. If the disagreeing parties cannot identify and admit their own problem, they cannot address and solve it. But please go on and continue, it makes it an interesting reading , while Sambatogo, without his own idea agrees with both of you, which is not surprising, and not an eye opener, because I admitted to doing the same. What does it prove ? I also can agree with IDSF and WDC. Does it mean they are both right, wrong, or that they are two similar, yet very different ? Reply Quote
keggs Joined on 24 Декември 2005 Total posts: 208	Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION 09 Май 2008 г. 14:27 Hi think of me Interesting response. And of course we have both been very silly in how we have reacted to each others posts. I'm glad it has amused you. We need a bit of light entertainment. As for the argument, I consider myself 'right' in just 2 things 1. That both sides are as culpabale as each other. 2. That if both sides don't drop their mutual antagonism then Martyn's scenario for Karate will happen in Dance Sport too. That's all I've been trying to get across to onyourtoes. He won't accept that. Am I wrong or he / she? In the end if there is a split it won't matter. Only Martyn will be right. I have also been accused of straying from the topic. If by topic it is meant that I should join the mutual hatred society for all things IDSF then I'm afraid I'm not going to join. The WDC, amateur league and the league's 'world championships' are inextricably linked. You can't talk about one without talking about the other. The only answer that onyourtoes wants from me is to say the IDSF is totally wrong and should be condemned while the WDC is totally right and embrace their league. Well it isn't going to happen. Btw I'll pay to see good dancing whoever it is. Best wishes Steve Reply Quote
quicktime2 Joined on 31 Август 2007 Total posts: 79	Re: No 1 WDC Amateur League OPEN World Amateur Championships CORRECT POST VERSION 09 Май 2008 г. 18:46 To onyour toes Your comment "More and more I personally am convinced that the solution lies in the hand (or feet) and the hearts and minds of the dancers." I agree with you completely. Consider this. When we have a general election there are generally two (or more) parties who want to be in charge. All the people vote on whom they prefer and there is a process to determine the winner. We like to call this democracy. Both sides have an opportunity to present their case. Dancers want to have competitions. The WDC and IDSF both say they can provide this better than the other. But the details on exactly how this would be done are often not provided. Therefore it is often not clear to the competitor what is the best choice for them. In addition there is no procedure in place that allows both sides to present their case and for choices to be made. On top of that. Regardless of what they may say, it is not black or white. There are many options involving both WDC and IDSF. These options have not been articulated to the dance community. To my mind the challenge now is to make sure competitors are aware of all options and then to provide them an opportunity to choose.