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Re: Ontario Open Championships 2009 - Message to Canadian CDF from OADA dancers and their parents

28 Октомври 2009 г. 22:39

sambatogo

CDF is stronger now. Disease does spread you know.

But lets all try and be positive anyway shall we?

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OK , Lets  all be positive : 

@ jazz

 I have to  agree with sambatogo who makes several  good and intuitive points.  In that   CDF is stronger and that disease  can spread...for which reason it  was and it is   appropriate to make  CDF authority  aware.

@ rooftop

you have appropriately brought  a serious concern to those who can make a difference

It is up to CDF to be informed, to investigate, to  identify, to  locate and to either treat, or to remove any and all rotten apples ...before the disease spreads, as quite  correctly and intuitively mentioned by sambatogo.

@sambatogo

I  have to agree with you.  You are absolutely right in that  diseases spread- at least the contagious type.

You were also correct in that  you may provoke my response.  (Not to be confused with would  provoke ) .  

On the subject while  remaining positive:

  the good thing is that the adjudicators majority decision, enabled by use of the helpfull skating system,  prevented   the mentioned (and perhaps other  unmentioned)  and isolated departures from good judging  standards  from affecting the final results.

If the isolated cases can be identified and a leson  learnt and mistakes remedied ,  so much better .

Lets all keep on  caring and keep  on bringing  our  concerns  to the attention of the proper authorities. That is the right thing to do. 

Re: Ontario Open Championships 2009 - Message to Canadian CDF from OADA dancers and their parents

30 Октомври 2009 г. 13:30

sambatogo

To Jazz,

Does that mean the CDF is going to act on to this complaint? 

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Sambatogo,  you give Jazz too much credit.

Jazz believes CDF will accept, will consider and will act on any and all reasonable recomendations,  HOWEVER  Jazz cannot know for certainty whether or not CDF shall.

Lets keep our fingers crossed.   Happy Halloween sambatogo.

Re: Ontario Open Championships 2009 - Message to Canadian CDF from OADA dancers and their parents

31 Октомври 2009 г. 13:26

Lets stick with the topic sambatogo,  Jazz has already answered your question.

I suspect  you are an intelligent and an open minded person, so I have I copied and reprinted  what Jazz wrote and hope it will satisfy you for good  :

"Jazz believes  CDF will accept, will consider and will act on any and all  reasonable recommendations especially when accompanied with proof of wrongdoing, such as yours rooftop."
 

Back to what is discussed:

Dancers are talking loud and CDF need listen and address their  concerns.

Now that OADA has made the OOC results available in their  web site,  and providing  you have the  program with dancers names handy,  it is so easy, for a keen to learn person,  to verify that the following dancers' observations and comments regarding other disturbing issues are surprisingly accurate: 

 Dance pupils of  divorced' couple, both  dance teachers and judges, being marked down,  by  the presiding ex-spouse.    A  judge representing one club, marking up the club's  pupils ( reason for this Topic ) while  marking apparently down ( way down )  the pupils of another  specific club ( News ).

If you think  this is  just spreading a gossip , a  talk of a disgruntled parent or a dancer  ,  you be the judge. 

In a  long run all of the above  had  apparently  no effect on the final placements, BUT, realize the potential for damage if only five judges, or fewer judges  were used.

Re: Ontario Open Championships 2009 - Message to Canadian CDF from OADA dancers and their parents

01 Ноември 2009 г. 13:59

I agree with  judi_cator.

Maybe the judges who marked their 'favorite' were just and  justified in  not marking the best and the most able, after all they marked who they liked, and that had little do with dance quality and dancers ability.

I do not  agree with this white, needing to be white example, and disagree  it is up to those who are  the 'whitest' , or  consider themselves to be, to look into the matter to determine IF anything weird was going on and to take corrective action. Even the evil doers have the ability  recognize if a wrong doing takes place and can react accordingly, even correct the problem.  

The only authority which can make a change is one which makes the rules and sets standards for the judges , in this case CDF,  and it is up to CDF to take corrective steps. CDF does not need  be the purest, the whites, they just need only to be interested in finding if cleaning up their members act is in order,  and to decide if they want, or need  take steps to make it less obvious, to quiet down obvious discontent and to put stop to rumors and stipulations, which only result in hurting organizers.

The surprised and confused observers can only pin point possible departures from norms - something which you judi-cator suggest is  normal, wide spread and indeed a  nature of the beast, and are willing to live, and put up with it. 

I do not think that you need to go to examine  IDSF top competitions to look for examples,  wrong is wrong,  suggesting that someone else has done same in more visible  competitions  does not make wrong doing in minor championships any more acceptable,  unless you accept your belief that this is the nature of dancesport, and nothing can be done about it,  after you  have abdicated and became resigned to "the nature of the beast".

It is unfortunate if  you have given up on dancesport suggesting that athlete  should stop competing  if he/she cannot accept  the  "nature of the beast'.  Please do not advise others to follow your example. Losers attitude. 

It is your  " nature of the beast"   judi_cator which results in  the lower attendance and decreased interest in local competitions.  

It is the current OADA's rules which force top competitors to attend Local competitions so that they may qualify as the top 1,2   for a  financial sponsorship to the Canadians .

How do you think  these top dancers feel when they see  they are being marked by some judges well below what is deserved ,  realizing that if it were not for 9 judges, and the skating system,   that  with fewer such  judges they could even end up behind somebody else 'favorite'  and less able  pupils ?

Dancers and their supporting parents and dance lovers  do not have to put up with this  "nature of  the best " . This  "beast" is worth fighting ,  it need be examined, re-examined  as it is the reason, and the  stumbling block  which prevents dancesport from  becoming a recognized sport and perhaps an Olympic sport.

Halloween  ?   This is not about a witch hunt,  this  is all about cleaning up  one's act, and as  Jazz,  wrote,  she  believes CDF will take positive steps and will  correct what need be corrected....that is ....if   CDF  determines  they need clip the wings, and cut back a bit the claws of the  "nature of the beast" . 

Others, like sambatogo,  may question if CDF will do anything at all . Who knows.  You can lead the horse to the water hole you cannot make it drink.

Re: Ontario Open Championships 2009 - Message to Canadian CDF from OADA dancers and their parents

03 Ноември 2009 г. 04:12

Rooftop  I read your response with some disappointment.
First disappointment that you have not provided the information requested with regard to the actual events you complain over. It gives the feeling that perhaps you realise your complaint MIGHT not hold up to closer examination. Please note I only say "might not".
 
Second disappointment is you give the impression there can be no in between, unless all markings meet your approval then something is wrong, wrong, wrong
You posed a question  how  " top dancers feel when they see  they are being marked by some judges well below what is deserved". How they should feel is disappointment but determined and vow to work harder and make next time out better, learn from the experience.
This too is a symptom of  the problem when pre ordained opinion is dancers  must be marked as  they feel they " deserve" and they are hurt, "victimised" crying "fix" anytime they get a result below expectation..
The points or placings they deserve are the judges decision. These "top" dancers think how they perform at that event is unimportant they are "a top dancer" and deserve to be marked as such. Every great champion at some point in their career has suffered results that were devastating at the stage.
 
Third disappointment is that you take the attitude the examples I gave from the Spaeker website were evidence of "Wrong doing".  Never did I even imply that.  The entire purpose of the examples were to show it is perfectly normal for variation in markings in fact it is almost desirable.  Judges are humans. Humans have their own opinions and they have the right to express those opinions honestly in their markings.   There is no "Perfect" dancer and what one judge likes another might find less attractive. Generally the standard is very high, extremely even and with the difference between the couples minuscule .
 
Let me again repeat we do not have a clock watch, a tape measure or weighing scales to reach dancing decisions. We have subjective opinion and we always will.  Even the touted "New Olympic" method  will be subjective opinion. Dance adjudication is not a scientific process. A couple can look gtreat one moment and less so 20seconds later. Please try to remember that 
 
I do not want to deal specifically with CDF but they are so much a part of the topic.  CDF is not some magical beast.  It is a group of humans with human failings.  I do not believe that any one of them has the authority to create a "coven" to criticise others and make judgments when they themselves are guilty of similar failings. These would very quickly be thrown back at them. 
 
Again courtesy of Spaeker may I give you some examples of TOP CDF  people judging at international events and where their markings are not exactly in line. These were extracted very quickly and there might well be worse examples.
 
Judge A from Canada 
Couple X  Tango  6 4 3 3 2 2 3 4 3
Waltz and VW        6 4 3 3 3 2 3 5 4
Quickstep              5 2 5 5 1 4 6 1 1
 
Same event Couple Y  Quickstep  3 1 1 1 1 1 4 2 5
 
Different Judge  Different event Different couple.
Judge C  from Canada  Samba      6 3 1 1 4 5 1 1 3
                                   Cha Cha           4 4 6 2 1 4 3 1 1
                                   Paso                  5 5 6 3 1 2 1 2 1
 
Different event.  Judges B and G from Canada
Cha Cha    4 2 3 3 4 4 4 6
Samba      1 4 2 6 2 2 1 1  
 
 
I could go on and on there are plenty of examples of the top CDF people not marking in line with every other judge. Thus I do not believe they are in a position to oversee a Witch Hunt. Very soon their own placements would come back to haunt those who  consider themselves the epitome of perfection competet to sit in judgment on mere mortals..
Before I used the words whiter than white perhaps more accurate only those without sin should judge the decisions of others,  There is supposedly already in existence a full code of conduct relating to judges and judging.
 
You claim a falling off in attendance. According to some countries more and more people are entering the dancesport competitions.  True or untrue? 

What I would suggest is that far more dancers are driven away by

the politics, the restrictions, the compulsions, the lack of respect for competitors and their rights, the refusal to allow freedom to compete where they choose. the high costs and true amateurs having to compete against Amateurs earning a living from dancing and teaching. 

 than by the judging process.
 

Rooftop a final  question do you not feel that it might have been more productive to have written a private letter under your own name to OADA with copy to CDF setting our your grievances and providing all documentary facts as proof of your allegations and perceived wrong doing.  An anonympus  rant with innuendo on a forum is not, going to get the problem solved  and it does not deserve to.

  
Think of Me.  I believe you highlight another the problem.  In some cases dancers are showered with praise and promises of future glory and they come to believe they are much better than is the fact. Their expectations are raised.
There are those who believe the Italian couple you name have a God given right to a high placing.  Certainly I do not share that opinion-  My view,  and just 3 examples,  I far prefer the performances I have normally witnessed from Karabey/Karabey, Boyce/Boyce, Krapez/Nigro.  They portray the type of dancing I admire and  the way I would like to see dancing continue to develop. Call me to your inquisition, burn me at the stake, it will make no difference my dance training leads me to my own beliefs and I will not be a "cloned" and mindless judge with a rubber stamp.
 
Long may variation in markings continue so that those who are developing and improving and sometimes being rewarded with the thrill of  higher placements will not give up because of pre existing "top couples" believing they must not be judged on performance but reputation.and get upset when a result does not go their way.
 
 In that final when the music starts all finalists have the right to be considered for the No 1 spots , and especially if their dancing (but not past form) says so.